City Council — 2021-02-09

Okay we are

ready

to go anytime you're ready to go. We

are live. Thank you okay we're live, we're back. Mr. City Attorney do you have anything to

report

back?

Thank you Madam Mayor. The City Council met in closed session to consider one item, a conference with real property negotiator, City Manager James Vega regarding the property owned by the school district APN 021-012010 and no reportable action was taken. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay we're going to do the pledge again. Roll

call first. I guess it's not listed but the call to order of the regular meeting for 7 p.m., and yeah, Gail can you do the roll call please?

She stepped away.

Sorry,

she's muted. There you are! Council Member Haney.

Yes.

Okay,

consent calendar um any public comment on that Gail?

No public comment

okay anybody want to pull anything or?

Move

to approve. Second. Okay great uh could we have a vote on that please Gail

Mayor Pro Tem Weirich?

Yes.

Mayor Stixx? Yes Council Member Haney?

Yes

Council Member Francina?

Yes

Council Member Blatz?

Yes Great okay so it's 7 0 6 do we move on to our discussion if we're okay all right moving right along um can we start with COVID report James thank you To you and the entire staff for doing so much work in this area. Thank you.

And

we're getting vaccines!

Yeah, yeah we have some good news to report on vaccines and well it's a brief report I think as we were back in the purple tier and we're kind of settling back in and um so there's not a whole lot but we have some news on vaccines and we just wanted to go over a couple things uh First here we show, we've kind of kept this trend going and showing the cases month to month in Ventura County. And I think the point with showing these is to remind people that even though the vaccines are coming, the cases are increasing.

We're starting, we finally hit the point where that holiday surge is coming to an end but there's still some concern about the Super Bowl and its impacts. And we'll see that over the next week or so whether that makes a big impact But obviously people can see the first, from March to November we had 15,000 cases which was about seven months. And since then from November to February just a few months, we've had an additional almost 60,000 cases in Ventura County so that it's definitely still higher numbers and a surge from what we were experiencing the first several months of this.

The trend is pretty much reflected also in our zip code, the 93023 zip code where we're up to about 928 cases total. And so it just is a reminder that everybody even though the vaccines are on the way quote unquote that we all need to keep exercising good distancing face coverings and hygiene to try to slow that down So that's also reflected on this chart, which is also available on the VC Recovers website where you can see we had hardly any cases in the first couple of months and then we started to see a surge from the holidays November through January.

But that's starting to come back down to kind of the normal numbers that we had beforehand so we're hoping That we have good results and that we don't have a big spike from the Super Bowl. And that, that we see this improving as things continue to open up outdoors. And so with that just a reminder with one change is that the last council meeting we announced that we were going back to purple tier which allows restaurants to be outdoors Open outdoors, hotels to be open with modifications. Nail salons and personal care services including like barber shops and hair salons can be open as well with modifications and shopping centers can be open with reduced capacity. The big change this week that was announced by the state is that places of worship can now offer indoor services At a reduced 25% capacity, so that was the big change.

I think the state announced that on Sunday. Was

it there James? Yeah, there's some big argument over the ability to sing or

Yeah, so yeah. So the reality what you know basically what occurred was that the state and I believe was actually sued but they were sued because they were treating the argument was that they're treating places of worship different from other indoor establishments and so the state had said that partly why they were doing that is because people were singing would sing and shout at church where as you don't sing and shout you know inside a grocery store for example And so that would lead to breathing out, which then leads to transmission. But I believe if I recall right the end result was that the courts did not find that that was persuasive and so they said that places of worship can be open indoors with the same modifications as most other businesses.

You know, the takeaway is you know try to I think that for everybody it's still to try to maintain distance, maintain reduced capacity and as much as you can to prevent spread.

James how does this impact our community meeting place on Sunday morning? Come on guys, help

me out.

Are we still limiting or how are we working that? Yeah

so this wouldn't necessarily impact the farmer's market because farmers markets an outdoor market so they're not under some of the same restrictions as these but we have worked with the farmers market where we had them put together a COVID plan With protocols in place, and those are still in place and we're still working with them. They hadn't contacted us at maybe a month back about expanding their capacity. And we had basically advised them to resubmit a plan with whatever protocols they were going to propose but we haven't received that yet so they're still operating with their COVID protocols.

And so we have this slide and just as a reminder, because everybody is focused on vaccines right now. And for good reason but we wanted to remind everybody and I meet regularly with County Public Health, Rigo Vargas in that group. And we were talking about even though the vaccines are coming, the critical thing that we all can do right now is do our part to prevent the spread keep Keep the numbers low, keep businesses open, keep you know keep the hospital capacity low. So we just want to do before we talk about vaccines just remind everybody you know as as businesses start to reopen as outdoor dining reopens if uh you know our message is everybody to keep doing your part. Keep wearing face coverings and keep six feet of distance And one of the lucky things here in Ojai is we're blessed with good weather, so take advantage of it and do outdoor activities where the risk of spread is much lower.

So a big update today is going to be focused on vaccines. The county this morning announced that they are opening up vaccine appointments to those 65 and older. Previously, it was 75 and older only So they are opening that up. We did hear that within hours of that, the appointments were booked but they're opening appointments every week and so they recommend that people check back on Mondays to make appointments.

So that's a big change. They are receiving more doses, which is nice. There's a typo here it should say 13,000 doses. At the last council meeting we had mentioned that they were expecting to receive 10,000 a week and they'd only been receiving 8,000 per week. This week they announced that they received 13, 000 doses so we're starting to see that increase which is a really good sign The county announced that they've administered 62,000 first doses with 19,000 second doses.

So obviously for our county with a population of almost 1 million it's you know we're getting moving but we need to move quicker but We have seen some of the vaccine sites and we've heard positive feedback from people that the sites are set up, they're operating well. It just comes down to getting enough doses right now. And to that end the city this week we had submitted a letter of support to the county that was supporting their vaccine process and urging the state to provide more doses although I will say that lack of doses is, you know, it's a top-down problem where all states are having that problem and all counties within states and all cities within counties. So we're going to keep advocating but the reality is everybody needs more doses and everybody, the state and federal governments are trying to ramp that up so And so we wanted to give a little bit of information about where you can register.

So residents who are now 65 and older can register on VenturaCountyRecovers.org slash vaccine information slash portal or if you don't have computer internet access and you're watching this meeting, you could call 805-477-7161. And then We actually talked this morning with the hospital. We had heard from the county that they were working, they're working on the plan to set up sites in different areas including one in Ojai and we had heard within 14 days that they were planning to open one.

I did talk to the hospital this morning and they said that They spoke with the county and they are expecting the site to open in Ohio on February 20th. So we'll give updates on that if we hear more, but that falls within that 14 day period so Right now we're hoping and expecting that the Ojai site open in the next couple of weeks. The reality is, you know, the county has been clear about this is they have the ability to open the sites it's getting enough doses for those sites but that's it looks like that's when they're thinking that will happen so And then just to remind everybody again, in the meantime keep getting tested and we now have testing at Sarzadi Park on Mondays and Wednesdays.

Mondays from 10am to 4pm, Wednesdays from 9am to 3.30pm. They will be closed for President's Day but open on the other Mondays and Wednesdays through February. And then last, just I wanted to mention this to just let people know we're starting to get more questions from people about some of the you know annual city events. And we just so everybody's aware is we started meeting with some of the organizations who have events coming up in the next couple of months and asking them what they are planning to do And we have some meetings set up in the next two weeks to review protocols with, with some of those groups and what the sense we're getting right now is that everybody's kind of They're watching what's changing to see if they're gonna even try to move forward with their events.

So we've offered to meet with them in the next couple of weeks, talk about where we're likely to be with our right now we're on purple tier I think we will be on purple tier for a couple of months is what it's looking like. So what those restrictions would likely be and then seeing if they wanna proceed and what protocols they'll have in place to do so. So we wanted to let people know that, because we're starting to get more questions. But the... We anticipate having more information and a little bit of a discussion during the COVID item on the 23rd. So I have meetings with two of the groups this week and will give more information and let people know where those stand in the next two weeks.

Thanks, James. Randy?

I was going to ask James about those though the big three to me are the tennis tournament and the music festival and then have you had any conversations with Sterling regarding some type of a summer program? I know that they're hurting for business too but so those are the three that I think would impact the community the most as far as bringing in

Those are the three and we're meeting with the tennis tournament. We've already met with them once, but we agreed to meet this week to review more in depth. We reached out to the music festival will be meeting with them by that before the 23rd and then the sterling concerts. We haven't really discussed it with them yet. We have just talked a couple months back so we'll reach out to them and we'll report back on the February 23rd.

James, does that mean with that list that we had a while back there? Can we have events in Libby Bowl with 25% capacity or not right now?

It's an outdoor location. Let me see so we actually have the handy chart give me one second I was trying to pull it up So this is the, I think you're able to see this chart. And so live audience sports are not allowed. That's sports? Yeah. I don't think it goes into detail on events but that's the category. These are all the categories. That's the one that I would assume it's

playing. So it's not, okay.

Yeah,

churches are okay inside and churches are outside but we can't have a distance sitting in Libby Bowl.

Yeah right and with an audience like you know with an audience and I think that makes sense. I think the logic would be if you have a concert even with a smaller group of people the people are probably singing along and sharing air So thank you. And then professional sports just what we're on it is, you know this is something like the tennis tournament which right now you know could be open with substantial modifications and without live audiences so that's kind of what we're talking about with some of these other events.

Thank you.

Any other questions? Public comment Gail?

We have one public comment I only have a last name, or first name. It's Aurora. I will go ahead and allow her to talk. Hello,

thank you so much. Thank you for allowing me this opportunity to share my concerns with you. My name is Aurora. I'm a Ojai community member. I've lived here for about three years. I don't actually have children in the Ojai school system. I simply am a concerned adult. Um, I'm coming to you to bring you my concerns about a plan that I heard that actually is for the LA County School System to require the COVID vaccinations or injections for children to return to classes. And although I recognize that LA County and LA school system is a different district than Ojai, I'm coming to you proactively and preemptively to say to this city council for Ojai please do not put into enactment any plans to require or mandate the new mRNA injection against COVID-19 for school children And here are my main points for that.

Because it is untested, because it has not been through the rigorous testing that is required in order to say what type of an effect will this injection have on the reproductive aspect, reproductive organs of young people and their DNA of their progeny moving forward? So again, it's very different if adults wish to volunteer to be test subjects in this new injection or inoculation That's a different topic than if it is something that is required for young people. And I'm here again, speaking to you because young people don't have a political voice. They don't vote. They can't drive themselves places. They have very little economic capacity to vote with their dollars. So I just took it upon myself to come here and speak with you. Those are the main points that I wanted to make.

Thank you so much. That is the completion of my statement. Thank you, Aurora.

Mayor, Aurora are you still on the line?

Yes I'm still here thank you.

Have you taken your comments to the school board?

No i have not speaking with

the school board. Yeah I think that's another um place that you might want to take your concerns.

Thank you so much thank you I will do that good idea

thank you

okay uh

discussion

there there are no more public comments

is this file and receive yeah yep no action needed move To approve. Yep,

you don't have to vote on okay thank you thank you James. Okay um it's 7 24 uh shall we move to public communication?

I think i'd recommend it I think this the next item will take more than five minutes is my expectation

Okay, great. All right. Gail can we move to public comments please?

Yep we have one person for public communications that's Steve Colame and I will bring him into the meeting. Thank you. Steve if you can unmute yourself you can speak now.

I think i'm unmuted here

yes you are yeah we can hear you

Yeah, what I feel the need to say tonight does not come easily to me and I do not take what I have to say lightly. During the last council meeting on January 26th a line was crossed that should never be crossed. A member of this council maligned and impugned the integrity accuracy and honesty of Michelle Ellison Having worked with Ms. Ellison during the past year on the Climate Committee, I know of no one in this town with a higher standard of honesty and civic-mindedness than Michelle Ellison.

Councilmember Weyrich claiming to be quote factually speaking as he questioned the motivation and accuracy of Ms. Ellison's representation of a reach code. The person who in this case was not speaking factually was Councilmember Weyrich For all of Ms. Ellison's correspondence and public testimony were accurate and informative. By implication, Mr. Wyrick also incorrectly and inappropriately impugned the entire Climate Committee.

Last August he and the rest of the Council received a detailed listing of communities that by that time had passed a Reach Code with information on each code and with all variations of approach taken by the different communities. The representation of Ms. Ellison at each of the subsequent council meetings was clear and accurate. Last August, approximately 30 communities in the state had passed a Reach Code.

By the time the Ojai code was passed in late October there were 35 communities. Despite heavy lobbying by SoCalGas against these codes, the count is now 42 with several communities pending. Clearly this is a concept whose time has come. Mr. Wyrick's comments at the last council meeting were wrong, insulting and slanderous. Now I would have preferred to have made this a private communication were it not for this becoming a pattern of behavior.

The public can review prior meetings on YouTube to reach their own conclusions. Thank you.

Okay, thank you Steve. Any more comments Gail?

No more public comments.

Okay so we'll move on to number three the Climate Committee, the work plan.

Yeah I can give just a brief introduction. I think we also, I believe one of the members, I think Michelle Olson was going to be available if there's any questions for the committee but briefly At a prior council meeting on January 12th, sorry. The city council directed that the ad hoc climate committee would be extended for six months but that they should return to council within 30 days with a defined agenda and so this item is on the agenda to provide The work plan from the Climate Committee, which is included as attachment A to the packet.

The Climate Committee held its meeting. It was a public meeting that was available to watch via Zoom on Wednesday, February 3rd at 4 p.m.. At that meeting, the committee stated that they were submitting this plan and so the plan is being submitted and essentially The whole plan is there, but the two items that the committee has proposed to focus on over the next six months is developing a city-specific greenhouse gas inventory.

And the idea being that that is an inventory that will allow us to measure more fully the impact of all the things we're doing and then second, to develop a draft climate element for the City's General Plan update And so those are the, that's essentially what's being proposed as the work plan for the committee for the next six months. So the items back before council, council can review it and provide feedback or direction to the, to the committee.

Thanks James. Any questions?

Yeah. James, are you going to mention about the costs for the general plan and give them a chance to respond to that?

Sure. Yeah, and yeah. So when we reviewed the plan and we saw the draft climate element was going to be the second recommended item, we wanted to provide... We wanted to consult with our general plan update team to see what the options were for a climate element As a little bit of a reminder and a little background is the city, we have several elements that are out of date that are legally required to be updated.

So we entered into agreement to have those legally required elements updated and it was $650,000 so this is like a huge contract for a city of our size unfortunately No, almost no matter what size you are that that's kind of the going rate so we you know we pay about the same that a city like Santa Paula would pay or city like thousand Oaks even though there's these different sizes with some minor differences.

But so we are, we have a contract for $650,000 for six elements. A climate element is not legally required and so when we entered into this agreement we did not include a climate element. We also did not include a recreation element which we previously had just again because the budget didn't allow for extra elements quote-unquote At that time and so when we review this report we asked the consultants to give us estimates and we worked on those estimates with them.

They estimated that as proposed. And it depends how involved they are but has proposed yes, the reasonable estimate was about a 100 hours of consultant time to work back and forth with the committee So the estimated cost to do that, have workshops and do public outreach is about $30,000. Versus if we just went to them and said you know consultants we want to hire you to do this then the cost would be between 50-70 thousand dollars.

And then last the third option that they identified is that some cities are now doing climate action plans which are like like the deluxe plans and those are 150,000 and up so Those are basically like the three basic options for a climate element. And then the second point is that right now we don't have those in our contract, we don't have those in our budget. So if and when we choose to do those, we'd have to identify funding and add it to... Add the scope to the contract.

Bill? Yeah, quick question. Correct me if I'm wrong James, but I believe the among the required elements we have one hard deadline which is October for the housing element.

Yes,

it has to be our focus to get done by October. And are there other hard deadlines other than the housing element of them on the required set.

I believe that's the one hard deadline that I'm aware of, but it is a hard deadline and it's one that we are really focusing on. Just to add to that, we had a workshop planned. The next step in the general plan update was a virtual workshop which we aren't happy that it has to be virtual but it's the reality where And we had planned it for mid-January. I think it was January 15th, but because of that surge in cases, we knew that the community was not going to be able to give this its full attention. So we postponed that to March 10th which is looking much better case numbers are coming down. I think people will be eager to participate but even with just that postponement which is due to COVID it's going to be a very tight Turn around to have a housing element developed, bring it to the public in workshops and then get it adopted by October.

So that is going to be the immediate urgent focus.

And I'll just confirm if I may that the hard deadline is indeed the October deadline for the housing element. The other element updates there's no hard deadline although certain elements of the land use components rather are the land use We need to be updated to go with the new housing element. But if we have a window of time to do that after the new housing element is adopted, then bring everything else in consistency.

Back to the climate element, I did receive a response to the letter that James sent to all of us and to the committee about the cost. And are they going to have an opportunity to respond? Or I can read the response if there or are they still in the waiting room?

They're in the waiting room so if Council wants to bring them in to ask questions we can do that.

Do we have any public comment?

No public comments.

Okay.

Gail, do we have a Climate Committee representative on the line?

Yes, we have Steve Colame and Michelle Ellison would you like me to bring them both in? Michelle, you should be unmuted and Steve, you should be unmuted too. Hello? You're both available to speak now. So

I think right before you got on, Michelle, thanks for joining. Right before you got on there was a question about...I think the committee had responded to the comments about the costs

Right and I think so defer to Steve because Steve had replied. So Steve do you want to take a stab at that?

Sure, particularly given the timing focus now on the housing element and that the term of our committee is over the next six months it seems that makes a lot of sense for the city not to spend any money having our committee to draft a climate element, to do so over the next six months and label it as a draft. It can be used or not used depending on whether or not the city acquires the funds to extend that. It seems to me given what we are faced with over the next 20 years and the vulnerability of this valley to climate implications, to do a general plan that does not address climate is really nonsensical. So I would hope that we would do that when we look at the committee one of our members is Phil White who was a planning commissioner through the entire process of the county Developing its climate element, including seeing the weak points and the strong points of that development.

I and others on the committee also have followed that process and have particular expertise in Being able to bring, to bear the framework for a climate element. That would then be if the city were to find the funding subsequently that would then be vetted through the normal public process of review of any element in a general plan.

Thank you. Thanks, Steve. Any other questions for Michelle or Steve?

Well,

are we going to go

through their six month work plan or? Are the. Well, it looks

like we're going to close the public hearing and then go into the break.

No more questions.

OK,

I

don't know. I would like them to stay on

As a point of order Mayor, I'd like to close the public hearing and bring it back to council for deliberation.

Okay can we do that Gail? Thank you Michelle thank you Steve. Gail

yes i've muted both of them and if uh you need to have them come back on they will be in the waiting room for you

okay thank you very much

I'd like to talk about each in turn of their proposed tasks in whatever order. Okay, Phil you want to? Well taking them in order, I have a question for Ryan if that's okay. Ryan, I attended the public meeting which was by the way very useful and a lot of people were participating so that was a big success I thought There was mention on the greenhouse gas inventory that that was going to be done in conjunction with your chairmanship of the Air Quality Control Board.

And I was wondering, is that a project of the air pollution control district? No, what is the relationship there because it was brought up that you would be you in that agency we like it. You know, I could do a latency project or something.

Now what happened is last year, we had a meeting and had a preliminary meeting on what it would take to potentially try and engage in some of these things. And before I was chair, Ali who is kind of the second in command over there had agreed that it would be fairly easy to put together some of the information for it. But from a standpoint, the air pollution controller can't. It's incredibly cumbersome putting together a full inventory. The stationary source inventory information is really what we were trying to get first and then we were going to do some fairly basic computations to figure out the rest. It's not official, and we haven't got it done.

Dr. Coloman and myself have followed up a couple of times we did before the end of the year, and it just hasn't gotten done yet. So it's an unofficial gift of Air Pollution Control District to try and help us get it done so we're at the mercy of when it's convenient for them. Could I ask a follow-up question

Mayor? So Ryan, one question occurred to me because I used to...I did a lot of work in my early days as an economist on air parcel control. Air parcel deliveries and environmental you know defining what's critically important when you're talking about something like that involve atmospheric gases is the scope of your definition and it occurred to me that under LAFCO Where the city has influence are not just the city limits, but also the sphere of influence in the area of interest.

In terms of planning direction and that also might correspond to what might make more sense for the scope of a greenhouse gases inventory. I'm not really sure how appropriate it would be just for city limits as opposed to at least a sphere of influence if not the area of interest because the valley as a whole is a fairly defined Airshed, whereas the city is not. Did that discussion come up?

Yeah, the reality is the smaller the footprint, the easier it is to do the inventory, especially

as accurate it is. So

absolutely. But it's where we were getting you know, we were asked I mean, it was it was kind of limited this way. It was stated that there was no way we could get it done and Ali kind of went out on a limb and said You know, it's so small inside the city. We can compartmentalize just that data fairly simply on the stationary sources and then do a not as complicated computation for mobile sources but that's where it gets really really complicated In the conversation, it was kind of like what can we potentially get done and that was it. Anything more we want to do than that? If you notice on the extra costs if we added a climate element that James was talking about, it had a greenhouse gas inventory included in that. I don't know what percentage of that cost is it but that would be part of what is the substantial cost for it Um, the reality is that because the city's so small and because air pollution control district already has all the stationary source data in hand it would be fairly simple to compile that portion of the inventory but that's

about. In other words just a stationary source? So you would agree there's kind of a tension between Defining the airshed in a way that's really meaningful for planning purposes overall and tractability. So the smaller you do it, it's easier to do but less useful really for- Well

yeah and the other very complicated part is none of the focus historically on these issues has been greenhouse gases. You have to remember Air Pollution Control District were and I say were myself, the prior president, the new director We're trying to expand that scope a little bit, to include what are not considered pollutants but are considered climate change gases. So greenhouse gases. It is a pivot in some sense to what is really being inventoried and looked at. Some crosses over, but when you talk about NOx

rocks,

all the stuff that causes pollution it is not identical to what causes the greenhouse gas and other climate change gases. So it is difficult to try and ask APCD to do that, but we're trying to kind of work this new ideology in. And like many things, Ojai tends to be a good place to at least break the ice because of its size and willingness to participate in more progressive environmental ideas.

You

think we

could even, this is it for now. Do you think we could at least get the sphere of influence as a study area as opposed to the city limits? For example if you do just the city that doesn't even include the entire Arbolada.

Well, at this point we can't even get the city part done. So I'd like to get there first and then move on. The hard part is when we had this conversation like all of us in government COVID was you know we were almost around the corner it turns out we hadn't gotten to the home you know we hadn't even seen the homestretch yet and on top of that air pollution control like we didn't have a meeting today because they're opening the new building so that has been in all hands on deck they built their own building it's been a mess so I'm hoping that I know Dr. Coleman had followed up, we'll expand the scope as much as we can but you know it was kind of like hey we can't do anything was what they told us and then it was kind of like well can you at least do it for the city and then all right maybe we can do that but I agree I mean if we want real good fundamental data to start including in Integrating climate change, greenhouse gas issues with air pollution with our general plans and everything else.

We've got to start doing that but it's still a ways away from us having really great ideas. What we do know is we can say overwhelmingly it's not stationary sources especially in the valley. It's very little of an issue with stationary sources The mobile sources causing pollution, greenhouse gases in the valley extend all the way out to the ocean with the tankers going by that has made a noticeable difference in our air quality in the valley.

And the other huge factor are fires and temperature. So if we have a cold summer, we are you know, the biggest driving factor in the Ohio Valley for pollutants is actually the heat And the heat causes a lot more science to happen on the ground and the ground that causes it to turn into rocks, noxional stuff. We don't want it to be an ozone we don't like so.

Um, we could do all the stationary sources we want in the valley. It's, it's the tip of the iceberg. It really getting a comprehensive understanding of mobile sources. And inside of that, even without as great a data as we want, we know overwhelmingly It's vehicular traffic that contributes the most greenhouse gas. So we know that anytime we take out something that's combustion and replace it with something that's electric at this point, we know we're doing the most that we can to improve the greenhouse gas situation.

And then there's organic methane emissions as well as natural gas. Yeah

I mean it's a you know... There's been programs changing out the buses for natural gas and electric all over the county I'm not sure what our school district, if I think they might. I don't know for sure but I don't see them as often you know those are some of the stuff that's been nice is I've seen a lot of names of East End farms involved which aren't in the city but names I recognize who are utilizing the programs where the Ojai Valley had been kind of a place it hadn't so they're changing out old diesel equipment into newer either low emission or electric and there's subsidies and things that go along with that So I really encourage anyone, if you have a boat, you have a farm, any of that equipment get in touch with me. Get in touch with APCD.

There's a lot of stuff out there that's really great programs You know, measure how we get greenhouse gas and other pollutants out. And the best bang for the buck is these incentive programs across the board. And you know, an electrical vehicle infrastructure per capita in our Valley's pretty good but we can do better. And there's not any project contract I called on every APCD member in our last meeting and said look remember anybody who's building something new in your community?