City Council — 2021-08-03

scale. Mayor sticks here, Mayor Pro Tem Weirich

here,

Council Member Blatz

here,

Council Member Francina here, Council Member Haney

present

commission reports James?

We did not receive any present or we do not have any presentations or commissioner reports today.

Okay great, thank you. All right we'll move on to the public hearing is now open and number one is the extension of urgency ordinance placing moratorium on new formula business so just to review we've adopted a moratorium which is a big pause and currently the planning commission is reviewing that and The suggestion is that we allow them to continue, so that's what we'll be discussing tonight. And of course the theme is maintaining our beautiful small town ambiance and flavor which is one of the reasons why it makes Ojai so special and beloved to all of us.

So Matt, Mr City Attorney may we please have a staff report?

Certainly Mayor, Council and members of the community. What we have before you is a proposed extension of the moratorium on formula businesses that is on any business that has five or more establishments that has two or more of seven features that are common And the common seven features are the same six in the current ordinance plus one new feature, standardizer collective marketing. A moratorium is currently in place it was adopted June 22nd. It expires this Friday August 6th unless it is extended by the city council. Extension requires a four fifths vote of council staff recommends the extension for up to one year and that would be... The ordinance would be if adopted extended for one year but at such time as the council after planning commission review is completed adopts a final revised form of business ordinance then the moratorium would be superseded.

The recommendation is to adopt the extension to allow time for the planning commission's discussions which have been ongoing at the last couple of meetings and are continuing through the fall and perhaps into the winter, to be completed for a full review of the ordinance and updating it to reflect the realities of modern business and how best to protect the community's character With that, it's a four-fifths vote requirement for an extension. And the recommendation is to receive any public comment and then consider the matter. And I'm available for any questions in the meantime.

Thank you. Mr. Summers would it be in order after we, when we're deliberating for this recommendation to include a date certain for planning commission to report back a recommendation? Certainly, that would be reasonable.

Yeah, that'd be reasonable.

Okay thank you.

Okay, thank you. Thanks Matt. All right well moving on to public comment we have one a comment from Debbie Rubenstein. Debbie? Hi Debbie

I think you need to press the button. There you go.

Yeah, hi. I am totally opposed to this project. I will give you one example of why and that is my parents were here visiting us in Ojai. They stayed with us for like a week.

May I interrupt? Is this on the moratorium or the active transportation project? It's for the Maricopa Highway. Okay, that's number two I know it's confusing. Do you mind waiting until we get that? No not at all. I'll put number two on your card okay. Okay any other public comments do we Gail can you hear me?

No further we have no virtual speakers on this on item one. Okay

thank you Gail all right well moving on to well the public hearing is now closed and we will move on to discussion

Mayor, if I may just note that we did distribute 43 written public comments today. Several of those were about item two but there were, I believe six or seven that were about agenda item one so just noting that and those written public comments will be available as part of the posting on our city website for review by the public. Thank you James

In discussion now?

Yes.

I'm going to suggest that, I'm ready to make a motion to approve this with an additional stipulation that we have a date certain for a report back from Planning Commission. I don't want to have that open-ended and i'm going to suggest a date maybe of on or before October 30th For Planning Commission to have a definitive recommendation for council to then be able to agendize in a timely fashion. I know that just the mechanics of it are for a year, but I don't think we should wait that long and I think we should have a date certain. So I'm going to make a motion with that.

We did just receive one public comment late so that's OK. Can we go ahead Cindy Convery making a public comment? No, we're on number one. Cindy? Thank you.

Hi, Cindy Convery Ojai. I just wanted to follow up on my comments during the last meeting where we discussed this and it was referred to the planning commission that I really hope you'll be able to find a way to find expertise to drive this issue and write the proper ordinance And I felt like when I discussed it with the planning commission at their comments, they had many, many questions and were not experts in franchises and formula businesses. So I really hope that you'll consider finding room in the budget and maybe that means we're going to raise taxes, I don't know. But find some way to really get the expertise on this because it determines the future of Ojai.

It made me think back to when our city council sold our water rights in the 60s, and that didn't turn out so well. And I don't think they got proper advice on that deal. So maybe let's think about this one because it'll change the character of the town. Thank you. Thank you, Cindy.

All right, I want to make a comment on the motion when the time is right. Okay Bill would you consider some wording because if for some reason that the Planning Commission cannot deliver by end October there's an understanding...I mean i'd like to word it so that we want it by October 30th but if they need more time to let us know because I want this It does seem complex.

I have a little bit of concern because August kind of disappears, we're going to have a joint meeting, we've got housing so really September-October that's 60 days?

Well the principle of a date certain is more important to me than just not having it completely open ended is what I would if there's another date I'd be certainly willing to entertain it I just think a date certain is important. And and i have no problem uh i believe that the city manager has the discretion to bring in some under the city managers funding discretion could bring in a consultant or to help with the planning commission, I'd be in favor of that.

I would too yeah

okay

so do you would you have another date you'd propose?

I mean, 60 days sounds reasonable. I just want it to be with the understanding they can come to us if they need more time, right?

Of course.

Okay.

So that'll be my motion.

Okay, I'll second.

Randy?

I just had a question for the city attorney. So Matt, if this doesn't pass tonight

Microphone.

I'm sorry, Matt if this doesn't pass tonight where does it take us back to?

So if the council decides not to extend the moratorium then the current ordinance returns in full effect which means that it would still be the case that any form of business that meets the current definition would require a CUP that is a conditional use permit and planning commission review and approval The main change would be dropping it back down to six factors rather than seven, of which any two can be common. And what that are is right now the ordinance requires that any business that has 11 or more Establishments with two or more features among the following six, standardized menu, standardized facade, standardized decor, uniform apparel, standard signage, standard trademark. Any of those six, two or more of those six that are shared across 11 establishments, that's the current trigger that would come back into force for the council to not extend the moratorium.

If the moratorium is extended and those numbers are 11 drops to five And the factors six expands to seven remains two of seven, and that would continue. So it would change the rules but formal business would remain heavily regulated under either approach is just more regulated if the moratorium is extended.

I have a question too.

And then a question for the city manager since we did this mini moratorium have any permit? Thank you. Since we've established this mini moratorium, have any businesses come forward that have exceeded any of the levels that we've set forth now or any of the previous levels? Thank you.

So we have not had a business that met the criteria of a business that would be restricted under the moratorium since we put the moratorium in place. There have been several businesses that we reviewed and made sure that they weren't hitting those criteria, but there have not been any businesses to date that have been prevented because of the moratorium.

I'm in favor of extending the moratorium. My only question now is the number five that's during the pause, but we can still determine the final number. That's correct?

Yes. And the Planning Commission, it's currently scheduled for August 18th so not this meeting this week but the following and they did indicate that they plan to take a deep dive. So I think when we talk timeline they're going to need a few meetings to come back and make recommendations.

Okay thank you. So this will allow the Planning Commission to take that deep dive this time frame okay?

But still I have one question for the motion maker. Yes, and that would be bill instead of the moratorium which set it back to five. Would you be open to moving it to eight versus the five. One of the issues I had was with this going forward the last time was the city attorney actually wrote this. It wasn't coming directly from the planning commission, and I said at that meeting that my fear was is that the planning commission was gonna kick this down the road and accept the city attorney's verbiage.

And that's exactly where we are and what occurred. So would you be open to moving it to eight instead of five?

I'm a little nervous, I have to admit. I think it's more important that we get the four votes to extend it and if that's the price of doing so, I would prefer to see how the vote goes with five and if necessary then try with another number. That's where I'm at. So what I heard was a no? But open, we'll see how the vote goes.

Ryan any? All right well we're ready. We have a motion and a second so we're ready for the roll call vote please. Gail wherever

I'm sorry can you start over what was the first vote

Okay, well we have our answer thank you very much.

Thank you. We will move forward with the Planning Commission. Get to work Planning Commission.

Thank You Planning Commission All right, moving on to the discussion item. The active transportation program improvements on Maricopa Highway and Ojai Avenue. And just a little background, this is a design meeting to discuss Ojai Avenue, the changes we wanna make on Ojai Avenue, what kind of bike path we want on Maricopa Highway and how the lane reductions are going to work.

And as we all know, we all have the same goal. We all want the best for our town. We may have different opinions We do all agree that safety is the number one concern and slowing everybody down, whether you're on a... Is really the issue. So thank you all for being here and with that we will move on to the staff report. James? And James, do you want questions at the very end

or during? I think so. We're going to kind of break this into a couple of parts. We're going to go portion by portion Ojai Avenue starting from the East End and then we'll kind of pause after Ojai Avenue and take questions and then we'll go Maricopa Highway, pause and take questions and then last will be the right-of-way acquisition approvals. So that's how we would like to structure it Sounds

great, thank

you.

And then for the benefit of the people listening after that we have public comments right?

Okay yes and just so that you know we have about 22 public comments at this point so it'll be two minutes each thanks

Thank you. So we do have a, a presentation we have paper copies here because we'll pull it up on the screen as well, but if anybody's sitting in the further back we we have paper copies here on the stage. We wanted to start just quickly Kind of setting the stage with this is a long ongoing project years in the making and so we just want to kind of give some quick background before we move on to talking about the design of each of Ojai Avenue and then Maricopa Highway.

And so as we're pulling up our presentation, thank you can you go to slide two please James? So, we wanted to start just like I said this is a years in the making project so we wanted to start just by kind of updating everybody on the status of the three major components of the project at this time. I know a lot of the conversation is centered around Maricopa Highway and the demonstration but there's more to the project than that.

Ojai Avenue improvements including curb ramp improvements, pedestrian safety improvements such as flashing beacons or curb extensions and sidewalk infill throughout many portions of Ojai Avenue are also being designed. And that design is at about 90%. And so, one of the main focuses of tonight's meeting is to give Council and the public a chance to give feedback on those designs.

Before we move forward and move towards a 95% design in coming months. And so, the Ojai Avenue portion is at 90% we'll walk through that in detail. The Maricopa Highway portion is also at about 90%. But there are two alternate designs based on the last council meeting where we reviewed the ATP. which was May 4th, there were two alternate designs that we were asked to study to determine if they were feasible. So to do that, we prepared those two alternate designs to about 10%.

And we'll get into those later but we call one a class four bike lane design and one a class one bike lane design One of those, the Class 4 design basically just moves parking off of the street and puts a two-way bike lane in on the Nordoff High School side of the street. The Class 1 design which is the second alternate we'll go through actually expands the sidewalk and puts the bicycles on the sidewalk rather than in the street So those are the two alternates that are at about 10% that we'll also walk through today as well.

Lastly, the third key item which is probably lost in the discussion because it's not a very exciting topic is for us to complete adding sidewalk, adding curb ramps. We need to acquire several portions of right-of-way you know there are parts of the street or the sidewalk now that are currently because of the way they were designed years and years ago they are actually on private property so for us to start fixing some of these things we'll need to acquire some several parcels worth of right away And that is actually out of everything the item that we need to make some decisions on today and move forward with, because the timeline for that acquisition is very tight.

Because of the work involved. So as we get towards the end of this presentation, we'll dive into that as well. But so those are the three key components as we move forward on the project and James next slide please moving to slide three for people following along the schedule for the ATP design I think it's gotten confusing. I think the first timeline we had put together for construction was impacted by COVID and there's been multiple extensions due to COVID, and so we wanted to really just kind of make the timeline very clear for everybody.

The demonstration project which was originally supposed to be a six-month demonstration Is now entering its ninth month, probably I think it's next week it will be at nine, nine months of the demonstration. We currently are planning to keep it in place until December, which would make it a full year demonstration. We were able to extend it from its prior date, which it was supposed to be removed in May, to enable us to get data on the 4th of July events and also to get more data as school traffic returns.

Which some Nordoff students had returned to campus in April so if we had ended when we were supposed to, we would have only had one month of data on that And it was only partial return. We have been in contact with the school district and we are told that they are supposed to return in person full time on August 18th, so we are still planning to be able to get several months worth of data out of the demonstration project.

And so that's the demonstration project. As far as the permanent project, we have tonight on our timeline because the key item tonight is authorizing the right-of-way engineering and then identifying any major design modifications to move forward to the 95% design. Then from August or from basically tomorrow to next August, we'll be doing the right-of way acquisition in the right of way engineering And then between December of 2021 to March or April of 2022 will be finalizing that 95% design, and we expect that that 95% design would then come back to the city council in March or April of 2022.

Depending on exactly what level of modification we choose tonight. And then, from April 2022 to October 2022 will be awarding the construction contract that has to be awarded by October 2022 and able to in order to satisfy the grant requirements. And then the plan, then would be to start construction shortly thereafter. So when we talk about the whole project Ojai Avenue and Maricopa that's the timeline for that project.

We want to have just one more kind of piece of background. Next slide please James is grant funding for this project. We have total grant funding right now of about four and a half million dollars. There's certain other things like the demo project we had received some funding for but for this actual permanent project, we have four and a half million dollars available for the grant three and a half million approximately will be able is planned for the construction portion 380,000 is for design and 680, 000 is the right-of-way engineering and acquisition.

And so at this point we are with the improvements that will show tonight and the improvements that were laid out in the packet We are at budget, it's very tight but the improvements are very close to what we have available in grant funding for the project. The alternate designs each had their own price tags. One was actually a little less expensive than the current design, one was about the same as the current design so that could make an impact but we have the funding available however if we do end up doing a lot of redesign work that would ultimately reduce what's available for construction but we do have adequate funding available as of this time And so next slide please, James.

For tonight's discussion, I know I've already kind of gone over this. But tonight's discussion there's three key issues we want to talk about and get feedback on. One is the Ojai Avenue design up to this point. And particularly, we're looking for feedback on some items. Well that's the next slide. I'll get to that. The second is the Maricopa Highway portion of the design and the two alternate designs that have been developed to 10%.

Third is the right of way acquisition approvals needed to move that project forward, that part of the project forward. Next slide please James. And so with that, we have Steve Friesen from Alta who has been lead on the design of this project from Alta's group. And he will walk us through the design before we do that I wanted to just quickly note that some of the major items that are currently designed for Ojai Avenue Is some of the portions of sidewalk infill is, is one of the major design elements curb ramp improvements and or curb extensions bike lanes and striping improvements. And then one key area is that Kenyatta there's several modifications such as curb extensions in a median And so, as we go through the design those are a couple of the key issues.

I wanted to call those out in particular, I think one thing we're looking for feedback on or the curb extensions. There were many I think there was 28 proposed. And I think what we've heard from the community and the feedback is that there is a preference for flashing beacons when possible so we wanted to kind of identify that for the City Council, and see if there is a consensus to go to look at either one or the other between the flashing beacons and curb extensions.

With that, that's those are kind of the key things to look for but with that Steve price and will be kind of walking us through the design from the east end of town moving west.

Thanks James. Next slide please. So this is hopefully not too dry and boring, it's going to be a mixture of plan views like this one as well as photos that hopefully in renderings. They give you an idea of what it will actually look like when it's constructed and as James said we're going to start from the east end on Ojai Avenue so this is the stretch from Gridley to Golden West and in this particular area We're going to be doing striping and a little bit of sidewalk infill, and you'll hear me mention sidewalk infill at various times. There are gaps in the overall sidewalk structure along Ojai Avenue. The original grant application was intended to provide not only safety for bicyclists but also for pedestrians by creating connectivity within the sidewalk system so you'll see that reference to sidewalk infill at various times.

Next slide please. So this is what that reach looks like today from Gridley through to Golden West. And after we implement on-street striping for the bike lane, it would look like the next slide please. And so as you can see here in this rendering there would be a bicycle lane that would allow for parking against the curb but this is what we would refer to as a class two bikeway.

Next slide please. So this next stretch is from Golden West through to Shady Lane. This is more sidewalk infill, along with bike lanes and striping improvements. And so again the idea here is to take care of the gaps that we have in the system and this would again be on street bike lane facilities. Next slide. So from Bryant to drown, there would be crosswalk improvements and this is where we start to see some of the more significant improvements in this reach. We will be planning to provide curb ramp improvements as well as curb extensions in the process of developing this project. We had quite a bit of collaboration and coordination with Caltrans. Caltrans is also doing work along this corridor.

The city and Caltrans spent a fair amount of time negotiating over the parsing of who would do which ramps. And so when the dust settled, Caltrans chose to do a number of curb ramps. They left the curb extensions to the city to decide where and if they wanted to implement them. The primary reason for installing curb extensions is to shorten the distance, the crossing distance from one side of the street to the other.

There are other means and methods of protecting pedestrians things like flashing beacons and so on but the physical distance that pedestrians would have to cross is aided principally by creating curb extensions and so in this particular reach that's where we see a number of these proposed next slide please And so that treatment continues from bald through Montgomery Street, again striping and bike lanes with crosswalk improvements at Bald Street.

Again part of the goal here was to create a safer environment for pedestrians so There are instances where the plans call for improving or implementing crosswalks that either aren't there today, or not up to current standards from a visibility standpoint both for motorists as well as for those crossing the street. Next slide please. And so this theme continues from Libbey Park over to Blanche, again intersection and crosswalk improvements, curb extensions.

And I understand that there's concern about how this looks through the arcade area and I'm going to share with you a couple of photographs that show what it looks like today and how that might look in the future. Next slide please. So this is a view of the arcade area as it exists today And this is one location where we have recommended that a curb extension be implemented as will be seen on the next slide, please.

And so as you can see there more or less in the bottom third of the photograph or the rendering there, we would be looking to implement a curb extension there again to shorten the distance in this area for folks crossing the street. Next slide please. So as we move on to Kenyatta Street, here we are looking to install a median to function as a refuge as well as to create separation between traffic in both directions. It also is a way of flagging the entry into the major downtown core so there's a sense of arrival for motorists and for folks on foot or non bicycles.

Coupled with this is modifications of the little pork shop that's there at Kenyatta to provide a little bit of a softer feel, as well as to promote better access for pedestrians. So next slide shows what that looks like today as we're looking westerly and then in the next slide it gives you a feel for what that would look like after the improvements are in place And so as we continue on, I'll show you some more photos here.

OI Avenue at Rincon. Next slide, please. Thank you. That's what this looks like today. Again, this is an area where we would look to be installing on-street bike lanes, class two bike lanes as well as improving the sidewalk experience and environment. And so on the next slide, you can see how that would look once it was constructed with a bicycle lane there in the street and adding a curb area to create a protected sidewalk area.

Next slide, please. Then from Bristol to Country Club Drive. This is, again more of the same sidewalk infill and bike lanes this stretch basically from here out to the why is characterized as having significant gaps in the sidewalk infrastructure, and also the street provides enough with in order to be able to construct on street bike lanes, as you'll see in the following photos. This is what it looks like today.

And then next slide. This is what it would look like with an addition of a bike lane in each direction. Next slide, please. So as we continue westerly, west of Country Club Drive, the improvements in this area are pretty much striping. Again, this is to perpetuate the class 2 bike lane facility. Next slide, please. So this is Ojai Avenue, east of the Y. This is what it looks like today. This gets to more of a continuation of the theme and then as you can see here, this is what it looks like once the bike lane is installed again in class two bike facility.

Next slide please. And then what we have here is Ojai Avenue at Rincon. This is what the sidewalk infill could look like, again adjacent to the bike lanes overall intent here is to provide a safe environment for bicyclists and pedestrians. Next slide. And then that takes us towards the Y, which as we approach the Y from the east. Again this is the continuation of the sidewalk infill and on street striping and class two bike facilities.

So before I move on to the Maricopa section, I'd like to stop and ask if there are any questions from council?

So where do we start? On your drawing right there, what did the dark red spaces indicate?

That is... It's tough for me to see. That is a bus stop.

Okay thank you. So Mayor, do we want to go through this whole thing from east to west right now or just take the time to ask questions?

Do you have any more questions specifically? That was the

only one I had is regarding that just what the red was.

Why don't we... I think

You know, we haven't gotten to get into Hawaii Avenue. I know Maricopa is the hot topic but we haven't really gotten to get to this so any design feedback that we can then take and put into the 95% would be very much appreciated.

From the sidewalk from Seoul Golf Course, Seoul Park Golf Course to Shady Lane and Shady Gridley on the south side of the street. Do we really need that? We have a nice sidewalk on the other side. Very few people walk down there at that point and it's a nice dirt path.

Would you repeat if it's from where to where?

In front of the golf course?

To where?

Attachment A, page six.

Thanks Bill.

Well, actually Mayor that's one of the areas that we looked at. It actually shows a concrete walkway extending from the entrance to the golf course east and then if you actually drive that space, you'll see that there's a ton of walking traffic that is actually utilizes the south side of the 150. One of my suggestions would be get an alternative bid to have that placed in decomposed granite It already has a curb, it already has a gutter and it's already in use. So it seems like tying that east to west on the south side of the boulevard would be beneficial to the public.

And decomposed granite much better for the joints? Yeah

well and cheaper than concrete like you said the biggest expense in curb and gutterance in any sidewalk is the actual curb and gutter But DG would fit right into what we would want for our community, for a permeable surface as well as a surface that can take traffic, as well as a surface that's easy to maintain.

I strongly support that. I was really pleased to see in the photographs it looked like some of the sidewalks were, what do you call that? DG decomposed granite So wherever feasible, I would like to see that instead of more cement. It'll be cooler too. Shall I save comments for later or just questions now?

I was going to suggest maybe we have comments per page. Okay. I'd also like to raise, i'm going to be making a number of comments as we go through these pages that really come down to value engineering and I want to give one example in front of the hotel you'll notice we've got a sidewalk in front of that hotel the priority of course is that dirt area I'm talking about the top one And if you go out and see as some of us have, what's involved in that sidewalk in front of the hotel. It is totally developed already in terms of landscaping other obstructions And in terms of cost effectiveness, you already have I know it's not quote unquote proper. But you already have a walking area there in terms of asphalt surface that you're talking about a very expensive piece of sidewalk there to add in front of the hotel when I think other areas are more a priority, especially the area along Ohio Avenue just to the west of that.

So that's just a comment where I think sometimes it's easy to draw things without really looking at the cost efficiency aspect of it. Okay

it's the Capri Hotel is what we're referring to. I'm

sorry.

You're right, the pages of Zumba's are handwritten here that we have on the desk.

And thank you all for your patience because clearly this is the first time we've done this here so...

I just to comment that we need to look at cost effectiveness here and what we're accomplishing and it's a lot of mature landscaping in that stretch that would be all torn out by this proposal

So again, getting back to this space though. So we're looking at DG on the South side and on the North side leave the Capri parking lot and the asphalt that's existing and then attach a curb and gutter and a drain system on that vacant lot going East to West to the next hotel system and heading to Shady Lane.

Anything else on this page? We move to attachment A, page five.

Give me one second we're going to move to the attachments rather than the PowerPoint so that everybody can refer to the same page. Thank you James.

Right, yes.

Since all the drown to Baltimore Montgomery and then our friend. Yeah,

I'll have to look at it in the real world.

The next section of Ojai will be approximately Bald Street to Drown Street. That's attachment A, page five.

So are we going over the items? Page three, four and five? Page by page. Okay. So a question for Alta, can I ask a question at this moment? How do you decide, the curb extension has the benefit for the pedestrian but the drawback is that it kicks the cyclist closer to the cars. So you have to weigh those two. Any thoughts on that?

I think you said it perfectly, we have to balance the needs of both of those groups of folks and so it tends to be just that it's a balance. And so the bicycle pathway. The thing that you can take away from this design is that it more or less linear, it doesn't jog back and forth in and out so a bicyclist can expect to continue on in a normal pathway. Also at the end of the day, the pedestrians are the most vulnerable users within the roadway area. And so they, at least from our perspective take precedence over bicyclists and motorized vehicles.

Yes I agree with that. The paradigm is pedestrians cyclist cars.

I might have a different paradigm than that, but I'm not gonna disagree.

As far as

vulnerability- But let's go this way if we're looking at money and we're looking at pedestrian safety. I would think that flashing beacons and giving citizens an opportunity to actually slower stop traffic is more important than having the ability to walk two feet into the street and still take your life in your own hands. So my suggestion would be to not have any curb extensions, unless absolutely necessary.

Take that money. as it benefits us and put more of the flash and beacons in. And I think the cost is almost the same, so we could actually have again, have engineering come back and give us a instead of again, curb extension just put beacons in and then see what those costs come back at. But I think that's what we all know what curb extensions do to people my age driving cars I will speak for you, I'll speak for me. But they're an obstacle so let's remove that.

Thank you Randy and I totally agree but it's all about flashing lights as soon as we can. I

could just add to that because Randy and I actually have talked about this a good bit I appreciate staff having the opportunity for us to do an early morning personal inspection. And it did seem like a couple of things were, and I know there's some division of labor here between Caltrans in the city but it didn't make sense to Randy and I when you look at some of these curb extensions that create an ADA path of travel one way across the street but then the other side is still completely out of compliance with ADA. So it seems to me the priority should be getting your, that's the great safety you have is in terms of creating the proper path of travels and not necessarily just through curb extensions. The other thing I want to point out that bothered me and we talked about that on our morning tour was if you look at the area of drown South Fulton and North Fulton, you've got three very developed areas there when you kind of wonder if one would do in terms of creating a safe path of travel across the street.

So I'm worried about the danger to bicycles. I agree with Randy in terms of the cost effectiveness issue. We looked at some of these curb extension issues. Some of them look like they involve moving far hydrants and things which is incredibly expensive And I think we're just going to have to really do some careful value engineering of looking at the beacons as well as proper reflection design at night, because our greatest danger is at night. And we really also need to look at on top of the flashing beacons and reflection in the street, we also need to look at how to light up, how to get the proper light down lighting on these crossings because everybody in this town has had that experience of somebody in dark clothing crossing at night without that lighting and it just, it scares the heck out of you.

So anyway those are my thoughts I'd rather put our money into that in other words.

If you'd like to make a public comment, okay. And

can we know for the public? I think just to kind of note so everybody could follow along is where we're on the Bryant to drown section. I know you're talking big picture but the area that you were focused on as the Bryant to drown section that's identified in the PowerPoint on page three, I believe it is.