City Council — 2023-06-27

Okay, we're gonna start there is a lot of traffic I think there was an accident so Councilmember Whitman ideally will come in at some point Welcome all to the Ojai City Council special meeting the joint meeting with the Historic Preservation Commission. Thank you historic preservation for being here Weston could we have and it's Tuesday June 27th 2023 The roll call, please Weston.

comment. Since you came in late I know you're probably caught in traffic could you listen to the beginning of the meeting because it was very very important for issues that are before us in the future? Okay,

so we have Kathy Smith and we'll just say and this is on all four topics So I Kathy Smith will be talking about Matilda. Huh? Thank You Kathy

Yes at that lectern

My name is Kathy Smith, I'm a resident of the Ojai Valley and Since 1972, I brought my written statements because I really want to get through all these points and I know I don't have a lot of time. I've worked in the field of education in the Ojai Valley in private and public schools and am currently retired. I volunteer to teach art at Miramonte School and I'm a member of the Board of Education.

I speak to you, of course on behalf of myself not the entire board because that's not allowed. I trust that in your preparation for this meeting tonight that you reviewed the May HPC meeting as well The council's decision in 2017 to designate the district office property as historic. I touch on both of those events because there were some inaccurate statements made and I'd like to share A few points with you and I know only one of you were on the council in 2017 when that occurred.

At the recent HPC meeting, community members and Ojai Valley News were criticized for reacting to the administrative report that was presented And yet the exact same language is on the report tonight that's before you. Yes, it instilled a deja vu moment for me having lived through that experience before and Felt like it was restarting again. That time in 2017 was the first time in history that a property was designated historic outside of the property owner's application and the language that was presented in May and to you tonight is still there.

It reads and refers to the old Nordoff High School Historic District The proposed historic district is how that document starts. Historic district, yes has a very specific term. It means an area designated as a historic district by ordinance of the council and it goes on to say other things but I want to say that using those terms sets for me clearly the HPC's recommendation that you consider it at some point as a historic property. I think this misunderstanding or this hype that's referred to would have easily been avoided by just saying the word property.

It could have said The Nordhoff High School property. And then we wouldn't have been happy, but we would have been able to pull it down a little bit during that meeting staff was continually staff continually admonished the commissioners and asked them to stick to the topic of studying the history, not the criteria, not using the word landmarking which happened over and over again.

In the report that Mr. Walker presents which you have before you he does again review the criterion for dedicating something historic, but yet it's faulty. I believe that area number four is incorrect. Area number four I think should be cultural resources, but instead he refers to the developer which is still, I believe, part of criterion number three.

Ms. Smith, it has been three minutes.

OK. Well, there's a lot more but I will leave these notes with

you. Excuse me. I'm going to make a motion that we hear the rest of this. This is a major decision to make.

I second that. Yeah. I appreciate it. There- Wait. We can take a vote here? Yep. Can we go right to this topic rather than the jail first unless the jail is quick?

The first two are very quick.

OK because now my head's in you know.

Yes in the 2019 CEQA report that we were seeking, we did find it and with Brian's help I was able to review it. It reports that the junior high school campus is recommendation is ineligible for listing in the NRHP and the CRHR as a historic district under all four of those criterias. It goes on to say that because of the removal of its original buildings, the campus doesn't represent the various historical periods that is required within the criteria and that individuals who attended, visited or taught at this school fell to identify Any direct significant association, and that must be a significant association per the regulations and what is set out in National Park Service's 2002.

I think it's premature for this discussion to go forward. None of us know what will happen with that campus. It may very well become a school again. And I personally I wanted to say I'm offended but I should instead say it really hurts me that a government agency would feel like they are in the position to direct the oversight of a property that has been in the possession of another governmental agency for more than 115 years.

No we all change. That's true. But that doesn't mean that the people that are standing now are not dedicated to the history of this school district and therefore, the city. Thank you.

Thank

you

Kathy. Any comments online?

None online Mayor.

Okay we will move on to discussion then. We'll begin with the jail plaque. Exciting! And thank you Harry and Vesta Hunt for being here. Much appreciated.

So, thank you Mayor. At some point I look for the opportunity to respond to those comments. So we're here to talk about Harry Hunt Sr., earlier, I think just a couple months ago, I think in April, a proclamation was presented by the City of Ojai to Harry Hunt Jr., who is behind us or in the area there. This was recognizing both his service in the military, but the service of his father who was Ojai's one-armed constable who died doing his duty and saving the community for them.

In the HPC, we brought forth two different ideas. One was to do a plaque that would be placed on the Ojai jail. He was very involved with the Ojai jail. Harry Jr can tell you that his father used to leave he and his brother in the jail locked before he would go and do errands, play jail, I don't know. But just those fun things and so he was very involved in the jail and so original suggestion was perhaps naming the jail after him but secondary suggestion was to put a plaque to honor his father. And so we made that motion, I made that motion it was then seconded and that motion was agreed to by the unanimously by the HPC So it was suggested to us by staff that the best way, the quickest way to get that approved having seen your calendar. I can agree with that was to bring it up in the item here and this is the picture that's most well known about Harry Senior.

Harry Junior was actually Grand Marshal in the Oak View Parade at that parade he and his family suggested that they would like the plaque to reflect this picture And so what we did was I have a long experience with plaques that have survived. This one is for David Utter, who died in 1996. It's still in place at the Little League Park down there. You can see it's still in great states. So I had my wife who did that and who also did Kathy Smith's mother, who was a very close friend and worked very hard. So that one's still down there at the snack bar where she spent so much time. So I had my wife do a line diagram of that. Some of you have that in front of you, and then below that is language that came from a three plus page that Harry Hunt Jr gave to us when we did an oral history interview of him with his daughter Kimberly.

And so this went off the summation that I put together went off Anchored down in San Diego, I knew she would come up with great verbiage. And so these are the words taken from that that his daughter put together and so we would like to We the HPC would like to answer any questions you might have and we would like to Entertain a motion from the Council approving this going ahead and being placed on the Ohio Jail

I'll make a motion. I'll second that, okay? Sure.

It could be approved. It could come before the HPC Again, this is language so I looked at the language prior to it going just pulled out all of the different articles that I could find Went to then D and that information was put together by Harry himself Harry will attest to the fact that when things have been reported on his dad that they have not been accurate That has been with most of us when things are said about our family and so Again, this is what was put together by his longtime reporter For a major San Diego station. So I have confidence that this is the language we should go forward with Craig. So Microphone

please We look at it a little more, you know with an objective eye and I think it would benefit from that review before being approval because we've caught lots of things. There's even been plaques that have had to be taken down and put up again because the information was incorrect on them so I just think it would be a good idea to have the commission approve that and then have it brought.

The reason why we put it on this agenda was to not have to wait until we can fit onto an agenda with City Council. So if you keep with the basic language but maybe just alternate some words here and there, can we go ahead with the approval tonight so we don't have to wait? Because we don' know how long it will be before we get onto your agenda

Mayor and Chair and Commission Council, it would be legal for the council to approve the placement of the plaque on the jail which is city-owned subject to final commission approval of the precise language.

Does that motion need a friendly amendment?

I'll look to the maker of the motion to confirm that'd be the motion

Yes.

OK. I will amend that a motion to include that option. Thank you. Excellent. All in favor?

Aye. OK, all right. Exciting and thank you, Harry and Vesta for being here and all your contributions to our community and your family's dedication. Exciting. Yeah.

Yes. So again, the other thing that Harry lent me was the purple cross that his father. I had heard much about purple crosses all my life but up until our HPC meeting, I'd never held one let alone seen one so anyway Harry was kind enough to bring this tonight too thank you of course we're gonna line up and take pictures over on the corner Great, thank you.

Merit list adoption? Do you want to do that second and then

Matilda? Well let me just Real quick. So the so the HPC Again the information you heard We we reviewed this there was some language in there that was corrected that was corrected both in the HPC That was also corrected by My going and appearing before the school board and explaining to them what had happened What the attentions were and also explaining to the school board? And sending an email to them with the agenda and also with additional attachments to them so that they were aware of this meeting. So, that language again, an effort was made and I felt was made at the school board to correct that, to advise them of what was taking place tonight The Matilla Middle School, and this is what I said we would be coming to the council for was solely to ask the permission or their not the permission but the okay for the council to continue for the HPC to do its responsibility.

Our responsibility is to monitor any Locations that may be historic within the city of Ojai and if any activity takes place on that to find out about them if they're historic and then to bring them to the City Council. And what we were doing on that May 11th meeting was purely just looking at the history of Matilda Hall Middle School

I was asked to come up with quiet in the audience,

please. I was asked to come up with some history of the old Nordhoff-Matiloha Junior High School campus, and I brought out a letter that I had written to the school board about a document that they had commissioned which was a historic report on the property as a whole and the building they intended to demolish which was the old cafeteria. And in that report it was the consultants introduction or use of the language that if you took a historic district made up of the whole property, that it wouldn't meet the Secretary of the Interior's standards. And he wrote the whole document around the concept of it being a historic district which was never anything that anyone proposed at the HPC.

I took issue with some of the conclusions that he had written. So what you see in that document, I'm not sure if you got a copy of it but is my response to that document that had been written by the consultant for the district which they apparently didn't know about but Eventually got found the copy of it. So I wanted to lay out what their consultant had said and why I took issue with those and why I felt that it was historic not that there should be a whole district of that property. That was not anything anybody ever thought about

I also ask that the word district be taken out so there wouldn't be any confusion because it is confusing.

Right, I mean I would agree with Kathy the use of the word property would be better and I think if ever it came to a spot where the council said we'd like to look at designation of that property that maybe only just a portion because I think The part that my letter addressed were the buildings designed by Wilson there, not the properties down below by Ojai Avenue or a lot of the other properties. Which is what their consultant was considering when they said it wasn't historic.

One of the conversations I had a few weeks ago with Atticus, the president of the school board—I think he's the president—was the nature of landmarking and that it does not preclude development. It doesn't preclude the building becoming another school in any way. There are a lot of things you can do and I gave him some links to look at other school properties across the country that have been landmarked We talked about the fear of basically not understanding something creates fear, you know. And there was a very fearful article that was filled with a lot of misinformation from the Ojai Valley News that created a very fear-based reaction during our meeting which I thought we cleared up so I was pretty surprised by Kathy Smith's comments about Just various comments that I didn't feel were accurate that happened if anybody wants to rewatch that meeting and see what I'm talking about But it is a fear-based reaction.

I don't think it precludes Any use of the school district whether it's a school whether it's you know turns into a development project

If I could just add on to that, I recall when the school district had proposed putting a shopping center in there with a 200 room hotel. Their architect actually seemed delighted in the fact that it had been designated a historic property and incorporated the historic property very nicely into his design, and even was going to restore the original tower on the building. So just to echo what you're saying there's nothing in landmarking or any kind of historic designation that prevents the use it just encourages adaptive reuse and repurposing of the original historic buildings Then bulldozing them and putting up something new.

And that pushback came from the community, it did not come from us. Oh right. You know the pushback against that development and you know I was thinking about this story about where the commissions came from, from the Galveston Hurricane and how that created this body that supports city government, these volunteer bodies And knowing that history helps you understand what commissions do. Knowing any kind of history helps to understand what's happening in today's world. It's called education, which we are really lacking in a lot of places for many, many reasons.

So I thought about the fact that In our joint session with Historic Preservation, talking about the history of the commissions enlightens everybody as to what we do and going outside and seeing these various buildings tells the story of who we are as a community in our place and how we built this and who did what. And it really elevates the community so that's really the overall goal.

And that's something that the children of the community pick up on too They learn about their community by knowing the buildings and knowing what they represent and how the community developed.

I mean, the biggest example is a Holocaust museum. These are really important ideas that train people or help people understand what came before and that our decisions cause the future. So it's a big picture conversation. I

do want to add that at our meeting we did discuss Whether it's the district offices or the future of Matilija, it is important that we work together with the trustees and with the staff at OHA Unified. I think that there was probably a better way to go around it before but communication broke down And I think that we have to make sure that doesn't happen this time, that they are part of the dialogue and the decisions and meetings. Making sure that we incorporate everybody, the stakeholders into it.

I'm confident that everyone would come to the same conclusion that these buildings tell a story of our town and adaptive reuse and reusing these buildings Thank you.

Councilmember

Lange, I just have a question. I mean, I know our school district is really has really gone through a lot And I feel for everyone who's on the on the board if we go forward with this how would that impact their decision-making or their ability to do to To have the freedom to do what they want to do or see fit to do with those properties

So let me answer this, because I was very involved in the first round too. Worked with Kathy on that. The other thing is this is a copy of the report. It's not something that I can... This is only a front page copy. But again, this is 110 pages. It was demanded by the state because of construction that was taking place on that property. Much of the information that Craig relayed to us in that four page report was also in this book or in this report. It says categorical exemption, then it says cultural resources for attachment number A. So again, And this information, as soon as we found the report I called Kathy and I advised her of the report.

Again because she and I worked together when the process took place. To answer your question, your question is way beyond why we came here today. All we came...and I don't want to see that in the paper inferring that was our plan all along. Our purpose for coming here today was just to ask for the City Council to understand that part of our responsibility that's called out in the code is to look at all potentially historic properties within the city of Ojai. To monitor and to make recommendations. Craig's going to talk about the Historic Structures of Merit. The Matilda Hobb Middle School was on that.

That report didn't just start in the last couple weeks, that Historic Structures of Merit is over a decade old. And again this is information that I relayed to the board. So we are here just to say, is it okay if we continue doing what we're doing? I've been in touch with Kathy. I've been in touch with Atticus. Mr. Mon charge, who's the? Attorney on the board he contacted me I got them near the added information They were looking for attachments not realizing that there was a hyperlink that took them to a document so we're trying to Keep them apprised of any movement that way take place but right now We don't have any movement

If I could just say one more thing about that in response to what you said, is that all we do is provide recommendations based on a process that's been set down in the city code. If the school district came with a project that was a three-story modern building that That they felt was absolutely critical that they had to bulldoze down the Wilson buildings and construct that. It would still be up to you, the council, to make that decision and you could say we think the value of this that they're presenting to the community into the district outweighs The historic value of those buildings, which is what we've done is tried to show you what the historic value is. Then you have that ability following the procedures to approve the project that they bring that they bring to you so

I love historic preservation. I think it's awesome and I understand that you have a mission, so to speak. Having talked to a few of the trustees what I've gotten from them is they are not ready for this. You have five new trustees on their board and they themselves I think would like to get some background in history and understanding of what you do before you start engaging in a conversation with them about this.

They're not ready, and I think Kathy said that And I think we should give them the time that they need to better understand, you know, the Historic Preservation Commission because there is some contentiousness about how you guys move forward and not just with the school district. You know, saying that's right or that's wrong but that there is. And we have so much discord already in this town I would hate to see it be pitted the school district against the HPC.

They're not ready they clearly said they're not ready to engage in a conversation about this with you. So we would be putting them in a position where they would have to be ready And there's five new, they have a huge amount on their plate. So I would like to see this be tabled at least for awhile until the school trustees come back and say we're ready to discuss this.

Any of them You know are giving a hard. No, they're giving a we're not ready for this We are still trying to wait ourselves out of new superintendent you know financial woes etc, etc and It is true They felt blindsided and there's no way to have them To roll back time and have them not feel blindsided Okay. Yes, mr. City Attorney wants to make a comment

Okay. Yeah, briefly just to go back to the point raised by Commissioner Walker answering the question from Council Member Lange. If this city were in the future after public hearings and process to landmark the Matilla Hall site like any other landmark site that creates an additional layer of process that any proposed development project of a certain scale that would affect a character defining element which is defined in the landmarking resolution typically it's your larger development projects and certainly demolition What I have to go through in that process is review and recommendation at a public hearing before the HPC, and certain findings. In the end yes, a project could be approved to demolish a landmark. There's an additional set of findings that have to be made if that is on the table, and those findings have to be made with substantial evidence supporting them, and it creates a basis for...

If the council were to approve it to ensure that those findings can be met, else it's vulnerable to challenge. It also triggers certain CEQA obligations. But CEQA applies anyway to a big enough project. The other key component is historically the landmarking status has created an ability for the Historic Preservation Commission and through it, the city, to negotiate regarding preservation. It sets a first priority for the site to look at adaptive reuse and preservation of the historic character-defining elements of each landmark. which for a property owner who has a vision of complete demolition can be a challenge. If the property owner's vision is adaptive reuse of what's on the ground, it shouldn't be a challenge. I don't think we know yet what OUSD's vision is of their site as noted there very early in their process.

The city has the power with appropriate process to landmark it over their objections as was done for the district office's site whether or not to do that is very much a council question on policy. Thank you No,

I want to answer the big questions. So councilmember rule Bringing this to the HPC to the agenda was initially brought to me in December It came to us in June that is partially because I have some control over with you what's said in the agenda and partially because I had been monitoring closely what was going on with the Ojai Unified School District Especially the financial end because I'm a retired chief chief financial officer and that was abhorrent to me. But I've been watching that, I'd seen the disarray and I did not because I was involved in the last process. I was very sensitive to our interjecting even anything as innocent as it was just to find out about the property, the historic nature of the property. And that was delayed for several months until it couldn't be delayed anymore after a meeting was held

where...

I'm always used to these people speaking into the mic. So again, purposely delayed. Oops. Hello? Okay try their- purposely

Okay

So again purposely delayed so as not to interject ourself in a sensitive time with the school board Again, I also went to the school board meeting right after that meeting took place introduced myself. I answered any questions that they had I told them that we would get the information Mr. Mon charge asked me specific questions any action that was taking place in this meeting? I told him the only action I anticipated was on the plaque everything else was just purely discussion and informative

Commissioner Convery was next

I think a conversation responding back and forth is helpful so that we don't have to circle back around. I

was going to talk about your comment which is, I had different information from my conversations with the school board than what you mentioned in that they were We're looking It's a very slow process, which is why it actually should start now because Matilija has changing. And if it takes two years to start addressing it you don't want to be up against a wall with something coming along and then there's a big food fight like there was over Chaparral and all the development that was going on there. And that was a very, very different conversation about communication with Chaparral. There were different issues for sure So it's not rushing the school board to interact with us. Again, they weren't blindsided at all. That information was on the agenda in June.

Was it May? Oh, was it May and then the Ojai Valley News wrote the most abhorrent absurd editorial that had nothing to do with reality You know, which caused everybody to get up in arms and when we privately or Brian called a few people I called a few people and said this is actually the truth. This is what we are doing. They were like relieved and happy so it's you know you gotta deal with the public I

just heard Commissioner or Trustee Smith say that this was premature and I have talked to two of the trustees who feel like it's premature and who feel like they're not at a point where they can turn their focus to this. And if they want to be If they want to be equal participants, regardless of what you feel or the HPC feels. They were not prepared for this and they are not prepared to engage as an equal partner in moving forward. And I was at the school board meeting as well when you presented. Yes.

When I was in college, there was something called language is action. So if I say to you, I promise I have said something but I have also made an action that is a promise is an action So when you talk about discussion, I think that in some minds it moves the process forward and it is an action. It opens up a door and it starts something that wasn't there before. And all I can say is I have heard from two commissioners and now from Trustee Smith that they are not ready for this That is a fair statement for them to say, and it is something that we should consider. And I heard Trustee Smith say that this was premature. They're not ready. So the fact that the HPC is ready It is well and good, but I would say to have equal partnership you need them to be ready as well.

So perhaps the idea is to get a timetable from them on when they would be ready to start this discussion with you and be part of it. And we have seen a lot of contentious issues with HPC. We saw it with the El Roblar. We saw it with the arches on the El Robar. I'm not going to that was a conversation. I'm not going to I don't know

Roblox is not on tonight's agenda

exactly so I did but and I apologize for that but there are contentious Yeah, yeah. So that would be my suggestion is that we table this until the trustees are ready to talk about it fair enough

right Councilmember Lang you're next and then Councilmember Whitman then I'd like to speak

So I have also heard from one of the other commissioners about this, about not being ready and about not having enough information and what we've talked about tonight. And what I'm hearing is something a little different than what I heard when that person reached out to me, and that is that we're not actually moving forward. We're moving forward with more research and more information, is that correct? Correct. So anything we decide tonight wouldn't be another layer of bureaucracy for the school board to have to go through It is just, are we going to allow you or are we going to support moving forward with doing some more of a study? Is that correct? Correct. That is

correct. Council Member Whitman's next.

Yeah, so just for a little bit of balance. A few months ago there was discussion about what was going to happen on school district property in the city of Ojai and boy I was surprised to hear that the school district was making plans on property without my having heard any of that And I called James and I said, gee, James has the school district been talking to you about these plans that they're talking about for, you know, the alternative plans for the different campuses.

It's a two-way street. If the school district wants to be more in a partnership with us, then they need to reach out to us and with respect to the rest of it I'd echo my understanding is exactly what Council Member Lange has just expressed which is that there is no right that the city, and I'll defer to our City Attorney on this but there is no right that we would be impacting with a decision to move forward tonight with what the commissioner is asking us to do.

Moving forward with research and further analysis does not impact the school district's rights. Yes. And the impact on their rights would come later if the council were to approve a landmark status,

right?

To the extent that the landmark status was impacted by the project.

Right. So we're not making a landmark status

decision tonight. Tonight is whether to pause or to continue the research.

And so I'll make one more comment, which is that... So I went to school of mental law and I have practiced law at the Santa Barbara courthouse. Not much in the last three months or last three years I should say but There's a great deal of similarity in the feel of spending time in the Santa Barbara Courthouse and spending time in that north part of the property, in those buildings.

It's you know it's a treasure that we should be

My son went there, and it's a pretty delightful campus to be around. So I agree. I spoke to Atticus yesterday. Had a really good talk with him. And I understand, Kathy, that everything is up in the air right now, and I really appreciate it. I am the school liaison, so I'd love to work together. And this is a collaboration. We're all on the same team. And I know that we can work together in peace and harmony, and Atticus was completely aligned with that.

So I think is there a motion just to allow the HPC to move forward on this? Council?

I'll move for that.

Is there a second?

I'll second

it. All in favor? Aye. All opposed? I'm going to abstain. OK, all right. Thank you very much. Thank you, Kathy for being here. We'll move on to the, what's the next one? The merit list adoption. Yep. Commissioner Walker, thank you.

Yeah we do.

And I just want to thank you Commissioner Walker for this beautiful work because it's really lovely and

learned a lot. And Madam Mayor if I could jump in briefly? The council could, as part of tonight's action, move the historic sites of merit list forward. But it could not be adopted tonight because we didn't give notice to the individual property owners who would need to be given that kind of notice for them to raise any concerns or questions they may have. So much like the prior one, the council can move it forward but couldn't adopt it tonight because we didn't give individualized notice to the individual property owners as would be required to adopt something about their individual properties.

Okay. And I have something to add. Thank you. Craig Walker at our last meeting did a beautiful presentation on all of these buildings and the history, both the structural history and the cultural history. So if you haven't watched it, I think that would be a really great thing to watch. You learn so much. It's kind of... You become full understanding of the story that we're trying to tell.

And just a little history of the process, because we started it when I was on the commission 11 years ago. At that time the council had commissioned a study by San Buenaventura Research Associates to do what's called a windshield study to look at every property in Ojai and rate them on historic significance and on integrity. And they went through, and they named all these buildings, gave them ratings, and the council didn't want to move forward on anything relating to that survey but They did say we would like to know what are the historic properties, not landmarks because we know what those are and we've already approved them as historic. But the ones that are potential landmarks or the ones that maybe don't rise to the level of landmarks but deserve consideration and some protection.