City Council — 2024-07-09

Good evening everyone. Call to order. Can we come to quiet please? Could we have the roll call please, Mr. Chief Deputy City Clerk?

Welcome Mayor, staff members of the community

commission reports, no presentations so we will move right on to public communication. Let's begin with Randy Haney then Larry Steingold then Anita Hendricks Oh, I'm sorry. Wrong pile. That's the first time I've done that in four years. Ron Solarseno, Randy Haney and Casey Abbott. Thank you.

All righty. Thank you so much members of council. My name is Ron Solorzano, the regional librarian for the Ojai Valley. Just a couple of quick things today I just want to remind everybody that our summer reading program is still going on with the Ventura County Library we have a program for youth and for adults and there's still time to join in and keep reading with us The program is going to run through the beginning of August, and at the Ojai Library in specifics we have weekly events going on for kids and youth as well as a couple of remaining one-time events coming up on Sunday July 14th. We're gonna have a rock painting art craft going on at the library that's gonna start at 1230 in the afternoon And then our end of summer party, can't believe it's already getting here is going to be on Thursday August 1st.

So on Thursday August 1st at 5pm we're gonna have Mr. Softee joining us at the library to cap off our summer programs And the other thing I wanted to mention as things have been hot here recently, it's looking to be a hot week. Just a reminder that the library is a cooling center we are open Monday through Thursday 10am to 8pm and Friday Saturday Sunday noon to five. We have air conditioning running water and places to sit down so if anyone wants to avail themselves of some air conditioning feel free to join us at the library and that's all i have for now thank you so much

Thank you so much, Ron. Next we have Randy Haney then Casey Abbott and then Anita Hendricks.

Mayor

Council and staff thank you for allowing me these three minutes I just wanted to talk about communication in the opportunity that presents yourself tonight the Well, let's do it this way. I'm hoping that tonight you're going to communicate to the community All of the issues that everyone raised at the last Council meeting regarding this homelessness and the affordable housing and the issues related to that.

I I think Or I should say, I feel that what has happened is that we haven't as a community received enough information from you and from staff. And therefore there's a ton of rumors and a lot of misinformation that is going on out there. And tonight you have an opportunity to have quite a few things on the agenda. I would just say take a step back in your deliberation and in any form of discussion with us.

Did you explain yourself? And you know, for instance the city manager and a couple of us met last Wednesday. I think Leslie rules there. I think it would be great to give Leslie in the city manager an opportunity to talk about that meeting and what transpired. You know the good and bad because a lot of there was some good and there wasn't bad but most importantly is at the end of the meeting six people left that room feeling pretty comfortable about what took place so it was a good opportunity to communicate.

And I'm just saying we need to do more of that. So that we remove the fear, we remove the anxiety, we remove the rumors and we start dealing with facts. Thank you.

Thank You Randy next we have Casey Abbott then Anita Hendricks and then Jeffrey Starkweather Okay see okay I need a Hendrix

I would like the City Council to consider creating a community pool for Ojai. For years and years, ever since I've been here we have not had a community pool every summer children who aren't from families that are wealthy enough to be a member of the athletic club do not have a pool to go to even adults And I don't know how much it would cost to do that. But you know the residents of Ojai count, the children of Ojai count and I think it's really imperative that we finally get a community pool. Thank you for your time.

Thank you Anita. Next we have Jeffrey Starkweather

Good evening Mayor, Council, I appreciate you so much addressing this homeless issue. It is a crisis here in Ojai. I just want to remind you all and the community because we had an expert here on the statewide study that homelessness is a housing problem. So we've got to deal with the housing in a systemic way both shortage of housing and the cost when we think about systems analysis of a system. We think of stock and flow Stock, if you think about it, I'll give you an example as a bathtub. The stock is the amount of water in the bathtub. The flow is water coming in or water going out. If water comes in and you don't stop it, it overflows. Water goes out and you don't do something to put water in, it goes empty. In our case, the stock here is the homeless people and the encampment.

But we also have a flow problem. We have, and doing this solution is not gonna change the flow problem. It's the amount of people that become homeless and the problem of people transitioning out of homeless either to permanent supportive housing or into actual jobs in housing. The big solution, obviously ultimately is more housing that's price acceptable and permanent supporting housing like a Cabrillo project three years away.

But there is a short term approach and it's called rental assistance. In our housing element, we have promised to give money to the help of Ojai for rental assistance. And why is that important? Because rental assistance as I interviewing them, I found that can prevent people from becoming homeless when they're in a crisis or it can help people move so that could help stem or slow down the flow into our system The second is coming out of it. If someone's transitioning out and they've got a job, it might be nice to have some rental assistance to help them get a start.

I would say at the last meeting, and I support it. We allocate at least 1.5 million for climate change. We're gonna give the new manager $450,000 for down payment or help with his housing. I think we could be giving for the next three years, $500,000 a year to help of Ojai to help us stem the flow into this system and help people out of this system. And you know, we're gonna get a lot more money without Roblor coming in And the second thing is we need to create a permanent housing and homeless prevention commission.

And one of its big tasks, another part of our housing element which we have not addressed is regulatory reform. We need to reduce the regulations that make it difficult to build affordable housing as well as business. Thank you

Thank you, Jeffrey. Any comments online? Thank you, Mayor. Let's we have one more in the house.

Mr. Stengel. Larry Steingold, Jeffrey, I actually agree with you. Seriously, if you want to stop somebody from becoming homeless, you don't have them not have a house I mean, it's a pretty simple concept. You're going to spend $12 million to do something when you have somebody like Mesa who actually talked about trying to stem the tide of homelessness where it starts.

So if you don't start there all we're doing is we're pushing against the tide. Well, if you do something in the beginning, you don't have to worry about it later on as much. So have a committee, do something, start educating our children, talk to them about balancing a checkbook, whatever it is. OK, but do something because whatever we're doing isn't working. Electric vehicles, different subject. Do we have a generator that will charge the electric vehicles when their grid is down big enough?

Question? Okay, just curiosity and I can add to my minutes. The process for road safety we have stop signs that went up why two people died one on Cuyama and one on Grand and we had a dog die and all of a sudden we got stop signs okay a year or two later six months later no studies I'd like a stop sign. We were told we don't have enough fatalities, enough action, enough problems. There's nothing there to get a stop sign.

But everybody gets stop signs whether it's right or wrong, whether they're needed or not. Have the process should work. That's all anybody wants. So anyway do what you can but do it. Enough with promises and just do something.

Thank you, Larry. Any comments online Weston?

No raised hands mayor but speaking to our zoom participants online we are about to end our public comment general public comment period I still see no raised hands will give it one more moment before we move on and let's move on there

thank you all right we'll move on to the consent calendar is there a motion to approve excuse me I'd like to pull an item

Okay. Which one? That's a really good question. I did know the warrant, so let's see. Is that B? 1B.

Anybody else?

No. Okay

is there a motion to approve everything except B?

I will. I'll move to approve everything but B.

Okay in a second?

Second.

All in favor? Aye. Aye. Council Member Ruhl?

Yeah, so I just actually wanted to speak to well on Item 8 on page 3 of three where it's Casitas Municipal Water District $83,000. I wanted to just sort of clarify that. I did ask earlier the City Manager and the Tech Department what that $83 thousand was for And basically it was to lay fiber optic conduit. We are a municipal, we're considered a middle mile basically and when we were tearing up the streets, when Casitas was tearing up the streets to put new water pipes in, it was decided that it would be a good time to lay fiber optic. That is to take advantage of the situation. So that actual $83,000 put in fiber optic for the park and rec department to connect us. I just wanted to clarify that.

Yeah, so when the water line replacement happened on 150, the council and I kind of forgot this approved that we go ahead and lay that fiber optic at the same time. So that's what we did. And I just wanted to clarify that.

OK. All right. So we need a motion to approve B.

I'll make the motion to approve B.

Second. All in favor? Aye. Okay, all right wonderful. All right we will move on to discussion This is item number two creation of tiny homes permanent supportive housing project location task force community engagement communications ad hoc committee and Project Advisory Committee and City Hall unhoused encampment encampment resolution funding or ERF grant update We have a staff report mr.. City manager

Yes, Mayor you have an oral presentation from me. I also want to point out that I've got some help here this evening. I anticipate with the folks gathered that there may be some questions from the public and so we have Jen Harky from Ventura County who's here. We've got Jane Walter and Whitney Nunez from help of Ojai. We have Amy Weiss from the St. Francis Challenge And on Zoom, we have Jeff Gaddis. So we have a lot of folks here to answer questions and so if it goes off into an area where I'm not the expert, I may be calling on somebody to answer a question for you but...

Great! And thank you to all the experts for being here showing up and Jeff online. Thank You

Great, so this is kind of a two-part presentation. One is an update on our Encanto. I think what I might do is just flip things around a little bit because I think it makes a little more sense for discussion. Give you an update on where we are with the encampment and then we can go into what I'm asking you to do this evening. So let's start with the Encanto. Since the time that we last met, we've made some additional progress with the encampment. We're continually working on it There are three major things that have taken place. One is we've had Amy Weiss, St. Francis Challenge arrive and she and her dog Rio G now live in the encampment there's a little 15 foot trailer out there.

She's visible she's present and she's implementing the resident steward model and she is going to be here Amy are you here somewhere in the audience? She just walked, okay well when she comes back in if I can spot her. Just want to make sure those of you that haven't met her in the public can do it. There she is there's Amy okay thank you for being here Amy okay so very important because we're implementing some order some structure some community there's been a survey that Amy has put out to those people who live in the greater neighborhood getting their feedback on what's happened so far what they'd like to see We will be holding some additional public meetings for those that want to attend with Amy.

You don't have to live in the neighborhood only to attend that, but we're just trying to really build a little mini village and community here so that's been very positive. We also now have private security at the encampment it's here every day from 4pm to 7am And it's also starting this coming weekend going to be 24 hours a day for the weekend period only and for city holidays. That will give Amy a little bit of a break because you know she's pretty much on all the time as you might imagine but it also is gonna provide some much needed help just making sure people who are in the encampment or who should be there and those who were should not be there are not there quelling disturbances so on and so forth So I want to make you aware of that.

We're continuing to follow council direction to put together a bid process for building out the lower portion of the Encanto regardless of what happens with the tiny homes project, we are going to continue the effort to build out the lower part of the Encanto to make it uniform with the upper part. Meaning that there will be platforms and wilderness tents, we'll get people off the dirt onto platforms.

It's a much more sanitary and secure Way to operate, I feel it's gonna aesthetically look a lot better. So that is underway but it is a formal bid process so we've had to bring in some engineers and so forth to help us get the material prepared but it's getting close and we anticipate that that will be built out. Bid upon coming back to you for approval and then completed hopefully in the August-September time frame.

Kind of a clumsy way to finish up that update, sorry. So that's in general kind of what's going on I think that is noteworthy in the Encanto. I don't think I've forgotten anything but you know again we've got Amy here and myself to answer questions. Jumping ahead to the tiny homes project you know since the last time we met Really been doing a lot of thinking and reviewing about where we are and where we should go. And I've been having lots of meetings with people in the community and experts, and I'm coming back to you tonight asking you to create three different task forces.

As I'm asking you to please consider taking the Ojai Valley Board of Realtors up on their offer to serve as a location scout if you will for a location in town. I've put together in the staff report a little filter of concerns I would want them to vet the properties through when bringing them forward for consideration but I think it'd be a great idea for us to take advantage of that local expertise Putting a time limit on it, I'm recommending 60 days just because we do need to continue to move forward.

While we don't have a hard deadline from the state as far as determining a new location We do need to still spend 50% of our development monies within the first 12 months And we also need to identify a location that is better than what we proposed in our application. Better meaning that either more homes are possible or it's in a better location as far as proximity to services, or both. So that would be great if we could get the realtors to help us with that.

Secondly. And this has been another one of our challenges it's been a very fast moving project but I'm going to suggest that we have. A committee put together for communication about the project so that the community can receive more information and can also provide feedback. I've suggested that each council member appoint somebody and then we have five at large members for a group of 10. I would work with that group to provide the information as it's available so they have that, and also to receive the information.

This group that I'm proposing would not be trying to rejigger if you will The components of the tiny home project that's already been determined by the state and awarded to us so in other words. We know we're locked into using and glad to be locked into using dignity moves and help of Ojai. And Ventura County. To make the project happen so we wouldn't be looking to change all that but it would be more just to get the word out and to engage the community and to receive feedback.

And then the last thing I'm recommending is once we do have a location determined, because I feel that we will find one. I would like a permanent advisory body, Brown Act committee to be as the advisory board to the Tiny Homes Project to the City Council. I feel that it does merit its own forum. And you know it could really allow that group to focus on the special needs and challenges that undoubtedly we'll face as we as we as we have that effort so that that would be something that would come if you gave me direction I'd come back later with an ordinance to make that change.

That wouldn't be an ad hoc committee that would be addition to the Ojai Municipal Code and I'd work with a city attorney on that if you directed me to do so. Again, I know there's a lot of folks here tonight that want to speak on this topic. I anticipate some questions that I might not be the best person to answer but we do have our experts here so with that I'm going to close my comments turn it over to you for questions and public comment thank you.

Thank you very much any questions from council?

Yeah through the mayor I do have a question um so would the third group sort of function as a commission is is that how it would yes okay so it would be akin to a commission yes okay thank you

Do we know yet when the council can do those appointments? I have a list of five people already.

For the ad hoc or for the?

Oh, excuse me. Yeah for the second.

The communication ad

hoc.

I would want direction from the council you know that's one of the recommendations so I would think that mayor maybe we would want to possibly break this up into separate motions it's just a suggestion and by the way what I proposed as far as you know what the structure is that's all for you to reconfigure if you like that was just a suggestion

And can we ask another question? Can people. Be on both?

I don't see any reason why not.

Yeah, I my I would just want to make sure that these the committee the commission the potential commission is a balance between people who have already been working on this for six months or longer and possibly new people with new insights. That's what I'm looking at.

Yeah, I deliberately didn't come up with specific criteria just because first of all I wasn't sure if you even wanted to proceed with any of these either and that's possible too. You may not want to so that's fine as well.

So after we hear from the public you'll get our feedback?

Right and again if you want to break it up into separate motions maybe that will be helpful then you can decide which if any of these you may want none of them. I don't know. You'll let us know.

Any other questions?

So Council Member Francina asked one of the questions I had too. So, I was wondering with the realtors you know they mentioned last time in public comments that they would be doing this basically as a pro bono offering for us. In your conversations with them has there been any talk about compensation or about okay

No, and but I didn't in fairness to the realtor that I didn't ask that. But the representatives that I did speak to didn't mention that. And from the letter that we received, I didn' get the feel that it was a community service is really what I felt they were offering.

OK, thank you. And then also one other question. Do we know the main core group of volunteers that have, I know several of them who are here tonight who have been working on this for six months or more. Do we know that main group of volunteers?

I think, you know, I could defer to some of the experts that are here with us. I would want to ask probably Jen Harkey about that for her to weigh in. I'm aware of those but also the city attorney and the assistant city manager I think are very familiar with those folks who have been very involved if that is something you'd like to know. But again, that would be a subjective opinion, of course.

Yes, yes, thank you.

Actually, I do have one additional question. So as I'm looking at the second ad hoc committee for community engagement and communication it says that allow for up to five additional at-large members through a process of applications of interest submitted to the city manager would you be the one who would decide on those five?

If you want me to, I mean, I was just trying to maybe make it a little. You know, maybe you want to give me some general criteria or you could also be the ones who approve that as well. It really is up to you to decide again if you would decide to move forward. I wasn't even sure if you wanted to have this so.

Okay thank you.

It's a

suggestion. So that would be something to decide? Okay great thank you.

Mayor Pro Tem?

Yeah As to the real estate task force, are we looking solely at city property? Are we looking outside of the city to include property in the unincorporated area? Are there any aspects of that grant and how that's applied in the rules Prevent us from going outside of the city if we have the right property that's in county and incorporated area.

Thank you, it's an excellent question. I think I would like to ask if we decide to create this task force with the Board of Realtors, I think it's fair to revisit some of the county properties that were explored. It may be that, you know, if the county is presented with a different group asking the question, the Board of Realtors are certainly different than me coming to them and I think that's good. And some of those properties are outside the city limits.

What's not entirely clear to me from the state is how far outside the city you can actually go and still have them approve the location. I have talked with the state about being within the sphere of influence, they were comfortable with that. And then that's a clear boundary as you know. I don't know if you get outside the sphere of influence if they are comfortable with that, if that becomes something Going to accept. It's a good question and I should ask that directly and I will the state.

And then follow up. To that. Does that include. Currently private property. That's in the unincorporated area.

I think the same answer would apply. I would think that you know I would ask for specific input from the state if it was outside the sphere of influence in the unincorporated area but I think it's a fair question I would ask that.

Great, thank you. We will move on to public comment first we have Randy Haney then Larry Steingold and then Anita Hendricks

I know what it last week. I was first okay. I'm on the clock First of all, great questions. Andy, great questions. Seriously good questions. That's one of the problems that I have with the first task force with the real estate folks is what is the criteria? And I keep hearing that we're a fast-moving train and that we gotta make these decisions spontaneously, and we don't have enough information. And again, I just highly recommend we take a step back because I think we have time.

And I think we need to develop the criteria that the state mandates through the grant, and that you as council people in the community are looking at in what we want for a site for this development. And some of the other questions that go along with that are gonna be, do we want utilities on these site? Or do we wanna put in utilities? What kind of lot do we want? There's just a multitude of questions. And I think that the city manager is gonna have to put quite a bit of thought into that so that you get the best information which you in turn can communicate to the next ad hoc committee which in turn can disseminate to the public.

That leads me to the second thing and that's the second ad hoc committee. I don't think it should end, it says in I believe in the written report that will end when the task force on finding the land ends. I think that that committee should stay for as long as you grant it further than the 60 days maybe give them 90 maybe give them 120 But I think that committee can in turn be the voice between you and the public. They can have hearings, when they have their meetings there are Brown Act meetings. They can receive public comment. There's just so much more communication that needs to take place. So I'm completely obviously for that. And then the third one which Mr. Starkweather alluded to which is a actual commission.

We need something for the long term future of housing and the homelessness in this community. And I think everyone in this room and everyone on this dais can look each other in the eye and say, this is not going away. In fact, part of me says it's going to get bigger. It's going to get larger. I'm not sure that we should limit ourselves to a site that can only accommodate 20. We may want to find a site that will accommodate 40. We may want to think outside this picture and then that's the last thing i want to say. We all know what the short term is. We got 12.5 million dollars that we gotta spend in two years and we gotta get it done as fast as we can.

What's the long-term vision? You don't have one. We don't have

one. Just a question, the city manager questions that come up should we do you think it'd be can we address them individually at this point or not?

I would maybe suggest because I think you're going to get a list just put all write them down and respond if you like once public comments finished

Okay, and I know Jeff Gattis can answer that question.

And

Jen Harky. Yeah. Okay next we have Larry Steingold then Anita Hendricks and then William

Wyrick. Hi Larry Steingold um I agree with everything that Mr. Haney says okay we need the committee you need to have people help you take this off your plate I mean because you have other things to do. There's a lot of people in this community who want to do this and help, and they need answers like the Real Estate Committee. Is this going to be a permanent or a temporary solution?

I mean, is it going to be a long-term lease? Is it a purchase? They're going to have to help negotiate the deal. Somebody is. All right, what are you going to offer the seller? These things are going to have to get done. But you need to get these questions answered. Is it permanent? I mean, is it temporary? Where are we going? Where do you expect the funds to come from year 3, 4, 5, 10, 15, 20?

Because this is not going to go away, and we have to take care of our own. So we have to plan for it. And long-term planning is what planning does. All right? And we have certain expectations and predictable consequences. So...go at it.

Thank you, Larry. Next, we have Anita Hendricks, then William Wyrick, and then Andy Gilman.

Okay. California I believe is the seventh largest economy in the world And years ago, there were corporate bailouts. The amount that one of them was given was enough to house everybody in this country. I'm all for temporary housing but we really need to also look at permanent housing. The committee here the task force I hesitate, actually I am very very concerned that this is given solely to the Ojai Valley Board of Realtors. Now I'm sure they have expertise and I think they have a good idea of what's going on in some areas but they're not social scientists, they're not the homeless They're not creative people who may have to really be resourceful in terms of finding housing. And they probably have not experienced homelessness themselves. Therefore, I think that this task force should not just include realtors.

They should be an advisory group. They may have some wonderful suggestions but we need to expand the people who are on that group. We have social workers, we have homeless people, we have concerned people in the community and it needs to be expanded. We can't just have a narrow, and also there could be a conflict of interest whereby somebody might have a concern about property values going down et cetera.

But I know a lot of realtors and there are some who've been very kind and helpful to me so I'm not knocking them. I hope you guys don't think that. The other thing is there was also another item which was let's see. Yes, and all these boards there should be included social workers homeless people low income people people who work directly and have experienced homelessness.

Not just the first group that's for all of them. There's a clause or requirement of the task force, the last one on D. It says and it's anticipated that neighbors and community would be supportive as well. This is where they proposed tiny homes permanent supportive housing. We've already experienced nimbyism in regard to that. I remember when there was a proposal years ago about something up on Foothill and this guy stood up and went into a tirade about how bad homeless people were and low income people were. They're drunks, you name it.

Well, you know what? I had a friend who worked for a lawyer in Montecito. At night she would come home and he would be drunk laying out on the floor. It's not just homeless people who have some of these issues. Let's see what else. How am I doing? Oh, my God, my time is almost up. Also the additional it says up to five additional people on this commission for I think it's the second number one. So each council member would select when I think we it's not up to it should be five additional community members and they should be people like our dear friend.

The wonderful

thank you. Thank you, Anita. Next. Next we have William Wyrick, then Andy Gilman and then Betsy VanLight.

A great illustration of why this is a great idea where it's being proposed to you by the city manager. We've got to get outside of the three minute constraint in terms of community discussion about all this. Anita, you want more ability to get into these issues and the three minute constraint in front of a city council meeting just doesn't allow that. So this is a great step forward because it gets outside that constraint and it's really needed. And so I really hope it goes forward.

I would ask you to please consider not starting the 60-day clock if you accept the recommendation for the realtors until you have answered the questions that they know the parameters they're dealing with. Mr. Whitman's questions are excellent, that should be defined before you start the 60 day clock on the realtors. The ABCD, again more services that's based on what is the baseline of services.

More improvements, what is the baseline? These are things that really ought to be as defined as possible before you start the 60 day clock so they know what their options are and can proceed effectively. I hope that if option two is adopted, that these are noticed meetings. That people are even though that may not be absolutely necessary by ordinance it would be better if they were noticed where community members could come in and discuss outside of that three minute constraint in terms of dealing with feedback as the city manager mentioned And communications, I hope that could be stipulated because it was not clear reading the staff report.

I would also suggest that there be applications for all participants rather than just the ones outside of the council appointments. For commissions we normally, I believe ask for applications for all participants and I think that would be a useful thing forward. And then in general, just to reiterate getting outside the three minute constraint more of a workshop format. You know we've had and Mr. Haney mentioned this. We got a lot of questions about long term sustainability here. We really pride ourselves on thinking about sustainability in this community and that has not been defined.

First two and then three are both important in terms of trying to define that allowing the right kind of feedback Because right now, it's I think difficult to get the full buy-in that we want and need and hope for from this community until they understand the long term sustainability plan there. Right now is a little nebulous and this is a great format for allowing that so thank you very much.

Thank You Bill next we have Andy Gilman then Betsy Van Light and then Ray Powers

Good evening, Council and staff. Andy Gilman, resident of Ojai. So first thanks to the work of Help of Ojai and St. Francis Challenge and for the many meetings that are happening throughout the city kind of in every corridor I very much appreciate the offer from the Board of Realtors and I hope that you accept their generous help There are many specific questions for the project as you know such as admission criteria, what to do when additional people come if there's no vacancy, the cost that we will incur after year two and I hope an upcoming workshop with ample time will address these questions. And I suggest that the staff in the council communicate clearly and often With shared and settled language, such as permanent versus transitional descriptions as we've seen.

And that you have the goal of transparency collaboration and trust building at the forefront of your actions in every communication. Finally there's many here that could speak on the proposed Committees that the city manager has offered here today And I'd like to offer something else and that is after this crisis is met. I propose we consider a standing climate and housing Commission and That could be an evolution from our third committee that we're talking about here There is a clarifying and overlapping set of solutions where climate action, our declining middle class and our housing insecurity can be collectively addressed. So let's carefully respond to the problem facing us, stabilize and then holistically and responsibly work to proactively care for as many of our citizens as we can.

And we could definitely do it. Thank you.

Thank you, Andy. Next we have Betsy Van Light then Ray Powers then Jeffrey Starkweather.

Good evening all. I'm Betsy Van Light, Ojai resident and this is pretty cool because I came to the podium just to say that I'm supportive of all three of the components that are presented this evening and what's been really fun is hearing other people come up and then ask questions that will be the next step in thinking through the different pieces of it And I appreciate a lot of the thoughtful suggestions and questions you've heard thus far.