UnGovr Transcript
iHow this transcript is madeUnGovr transcribes the official recording with automated speech-to-text, separates speakers by voice, and matches voices to the seated roster. Names and attributions are AI estimates and may contain errors.Verify any quote yourself: click anywhere in the transcript and the official video jumps to that exact moment, so you can check any quote against the recording.Scheduled start 6:00 PM · clock-time estimates pending review
0:00 – 0:1537 turns
We have a quorum. Could we please have the roll call?
Yes, Mayor.
Thank you.
Roll call — called by City Clerk
Show transcript
thank you.
Thank You Bridgette and welcome everyone to the special meeting of the Ojai City Council October 14th 2024 would you say the pledge for us please
Agenda Discussionitems moved / continued / pulled — click to expand
And is there a motion to approve the agenda?
I'll move. Go ahead. No, go ahead. I'll second it. You've got to get used to
it. All in favor? All in favor approval of the agenda? Aye. All right. OK, before we begin, I just would like to acknowledge Indigenous Peoples Day that's today and I would like to make a land acknowledgment A land acknowledgment is a formal statement that recognizes and respects indigenous peoples as traditional stewards of this land, and the enduring relationship that exists between indigenous peoples and traditional territories. It signals a commitment to develop a meaningful relationship with the Chumash.
In the spirit of healing, we acknowledge that Ojai City Hall is settled on unceded Chumash land. We honor and pay respect to the Chumash community and their elders both past and present as well as future generations. We hope this acknowledgment in our close relationship with the Chumasha community continue to produce honest and respectful discourse about the history of this land.
Thank you. Right, we will because it's a special meeting. We don't have general
public comment. We have public Comment on the two items. So we'll begin with our first item item number one the Finance and Budget Committee And we have a staff report
Yes mayor you'll hear this evening from our assistant city manager with backup from our finance director who is appearing virtually mr. Alameda
Thank You Ben so I will be presenting the budget and Finance Committee item that is before the council tonight for both adoption and Appointment to fill a couple of vacancies as they exist on the Commission So this was a request of the City Council Staff is bringing back this time a resolution to affirm the city's Budget and Finance Committee Previously this did exist. It existed in the city's investment policy, so this is a standalone resolution that really narrows down the scope and focus of it and gives a lot more detail of what the expectations are of the Budget and Finance Committee Just as an overview, the city annually develops a proposed budget document covering the period of July 1st through June 30th for the consideration and adoption of the City Council.
So as you know, the budget document shows all estimated revenues for the upcoming fiscal year and allocates the city's financial resources to fund programs projects and staffing to deliver the services to the city. Also another important component of the budget is the CIP document, the Capital Improvement Plan which is one of the components of the budget that's a more longer looking document that looks at the needs of the city over the coming five years and what programs and projects it will be taking on.
The proposed budget should be noted per the Ojai Municipal Code and the city manager's ordinance in there is the responsibility of the city manager to present. So, the proposed budget that you see and that is the city manager's proposed budget. Why I note that is the proposed Budget Committee is just a tool for the City Manager to develop that budget. So those recommendations at the end of the day will be probably noted in the staff report and incorporated as appropriate by the city manager in that proposed budget. So you won't be seeing two proposed budgets from the committee and the city manager The development of that proposed budget is something that the advisory committee will have a role in. So what the expectation is, is they'll be providing feedback on either potential programs or alternative ideas within the budget.
It was back in 2000 when this committee was instituted and it was a seven member body at that time and that's what we're bringing forth is to keep it as a seven member body. So those seven members are two City Council members the elected city treasurer The city manager the director of finance and then to community members in those community members We'll talk about how those folks are selected And Then I just wanted to make a note of some changes In the resolution of this committee that's before you from the old one that existed in 2000 So at our last meeting, the resolution and policy that was in the packet. There's no changes from that one to this one so those are both the same but some key points that you should be aware of.
The appointment process of the two residents What we're suggesting happens is they're nominated by the mayor and city treasurer with a concurrence of the City Council. Previously in the old policy, they were selected by the city manager. So if this is a City Council group, we'd want the City Council to select those two community members. Also, we're putting a focus on what this subcommittee will be looking at. So we're looking at really new programs and projects that are over a quarter of a million dollars so we aren't looking at the $1,500 office supply line item it's really the big items that the city will be taking on is what we'd like that public feedback on It's also clearly stated that this is a brown back body they are but that's just clearly stated in the resolution.
It's also stated that they are an advisory body. Their decisions aren't binding on either the city manager or the council. Also, another matter that is defined is staff resources. So obviously the development of the budget is a very time intensive process But with the committee if there are is additional research that they're asking for That's going to require significant staff resources or time that would need to go to the city manager for approval Basic questions. No no problem on historical things, but if it's something that's a new programs and take a lot of time to research We'd want to run that by the city manager And those are really the key changes before us So what we're asking tonight, and I would suggest that we break it up into three motions in three votes.
It's kind of two components of adopting a policy and making some appointments. The first is the council adopt the resolution affirming the budget and finance committee Second item would be a point one council member to fill the existing City Council vacancy and Then finally appoint one community member to fill the existing community member vacancy And with that myself or Pam could answer any questions. I should just clarify in the staff report It does have the Constitution of the committee obviously, the city treasurer Steve Olson mayor Betsy sticks city manager Ben Harvey Finance director Pam Greer the council member seat that's vacant The resident seat that is filled as Jeff rains and then the seventh seat is another resident seat. That's vacant
Thank you, Mr. Assistant City Manager. I do have a question just to clarify. So this evening we are agreeing if we do on how to fill the city resident positions? We're not picking the person. We're picking the way to get those people on the Budget Committee.
So by adopting the policy That selection process is built into it in the resolution. So if we adopt the policy, we have that selection process and then items two and three. Two would be selecting the second council member which we'd ask to be done tonight. Item three is selecting the community member which we would ask to be done tonight. And recall, even though the budget process is a ways out there looking at that surplus was something that we're probably going to do early next spring but something that
could. Sorry just to jump in I think just to clarify I think the confusion might be. It speaks to accepting applications. I don't know, right? And so I think then those applications would go as you as you mentioned to the city treasurer in this area. OK, so yeah, so we're mostly asking the council to determine amongst yourselves who will be the designee from the Council and then to embark upon the process for the mayor and the treasurer to select somebody to come back for ratification might get that correct, correct? OK,
and how are they applications is it advertised
Yeah, the plan would be to advertise as we would for another committee or commission opening.
OK, thank you. Any other questions from council? No, no,
we're going to have public comment first and then I have
well these were questions then will go to public comment. Do you have any questions for?
I'm gonna wait till after.
OK
yeah,
I do so
in this appointment to this group, is it the same appointment process? I mean in other words can they be removed at will. Is it you know in other words what actually happens if we decide that we want to remove the person just curious not that we would decide that but does this fall into the same model as a commission
Yes, it would mirror the commission process currently.
Okay. Thank you So it's it's a appointment at will that can be withdrawn at will by a majority of council?
Yes.
Okay.
Thank you Okay, we will move on
Mayor Pro Tem so but in terms of selecting The community member and we have one vacancy. Is that going to follow the process where some council member I mean, we don't and we don't have a. We don't have a chairperson that would be involved or are we going to just do a majority vote of the council on? On nominating someone to be on the committee.
Well, so what we're suggesting is that you direct staff to embark upon the process wherein we would advertise and accept applications. The mayor and the city treasurer would review the received applications Come to some type of agreement as to who they would like to recommend that individual then come back before the City Council for ratification So it's a little bit different in that sense. It's similar, but this is kind of an unusual Body
so are we going to need a motion on that? That specifies that that's the Process of getting to the selection or is that already baked in?
It's it's baked into the resolution. However, if you want to belt and suspender it that's always fine
Any other questions? And just one more reminder to about public comments. It's a special meeting, so public comments are only on the Budget Committee and the Code of Conduct. OK, good. All right. We will we'll go ahead and I do have a question council
member. And we still get to see all the applications just like we normally do.
I would think that would be the process. I hadn't thought that through, but I don't see any reason why. But what we're asking tonight is Council accept that it is the City Treasurer and the Mayor who make a recommendation which comes back before you? Okay. Thank you.
Council Member Ruhl? Yeah. Not that I'm espousing the idea, simply asking the question. Are there any, well will there be a matrix of qualifications or is it just, I mean how? Is there any process by which a good decision is made, i.e., is there a matrix, are we looking for experience, are we just, we're looking for somebody who's super interested, we're looking, what do we, how do we make this decision?
I would say, and Ed doesn't specifically call for it here this evening that we're deferring to the good judgment of the city treasurer and the mayor for somebody who might be beneficial in an advisory capacity to the City Council and the city manager. If you'd like to drill down that area, you can. This is a subjective determination though.
Yeah, so just to follow up. So I think the question then becomes are we looking for someone who has general sort of interest and maybe some experience in finance or are we looking for someone who can really figure out I'm just trying to, since their goal is also to evaluate potential programs or new programs or projects over a quarter of a million dollars. In some ways it's a qualitative assessment like this is a good project for Ojai and this is a less good project for Ojai but not necessarily this is a good project for Ojai but it's five times as expensive as it should be so I'm just trying to see
What I would, if I could just jump in. Yeah please. So it's going to be hard to find somebody with better experience than the City Council and the city treasurer simply because you're the most exposed to the process and even if you have a finance background municipal finances unlike private sector finance so we're a city of 8 000 people it's not likely we're gonna have a huge amount What I would say, and this is true really of any commission appointment the number one qualification is someone with good judgment.
And that's you know we're asking them to look at this from the eyes of the community and just guide us ultimately we want the City Council to make the budget decisions because you're the most informed on what's happening here and you know you're the most in tune with your constituents
0:15 – 0:2120 turns
Yes, that sounds reasonable to me. One final question. We had a budget and Finance Committee policy committee whatever it was, and somehow on some line item somewhere $8 million. Was there or not there that? Then bubbled up and was there so that is When people say that we're looking for oversight I want to understand that we had all of these people in the room And I don't know who knew that there was eight million dollars hidden, and who didn't So I want to try to figure out how We will Is that part and parcel of this particular role or is it you know, is it not?
I would say no. Okay. I would say you know and not to be at odds. I would say that you know the additional money in reserve was always in the budget just wasn't as easily and readily available for information as it might have been.
Oh yeah, no I get it was in the budget.
Yeah, I get it was not not
in the
budget You know when when I came on board and had some discussions you know with finance and with the assistant city manager we just made a policy recommendation decision to really be very forthright with everything that was at your disposal. I would not see that type of thing as the budget committee's purview because that's really more of a audit-type exercise And that's not the function of this committee. This committee is more We will move on to public comment. First we have Bill Miley, then John Buetti and Renee Rothman.
Hello. It's good to have this back, the Budget and Finance Committee. I fully support reestablishing this budget and finance committee. Having a second city council member is good. A second public member is also worthy and need it. I suggest the mayor be the chair. As to the number of meetings, it should be more than one which that's listed in the resolution. It should be more than one.
It seems important to me prior to the mid-year budget report meeting at the beginning of the new budget draft And any time a new budget item is proposed worth more than, in my money thinking $100,000 not a quarter of a million.
Thank
you.
Thank you Bill. Next we have John Boetti then Renee Roth.
Good evening, everyone. So this may be obvious but I've just got a question if the person selected from the City Council leaves before the end of their term would the person who succeeds them automatically assume the position?
Thank staff any
Would you like us to field that question now, Mayor? I don't think that has been contemplated.
I would say I would. I would imagine that we would start the process over again because just because the council member in that seat vacates office and a new person comes in it doesn't mean that the person who took the seat over is interested in being on the committee and we would hope to fill the committee with council members or not fill it but put council members in committees that they're interested in serving on so I believe we would open it up to the full council to make We're
still on public comment.
Because it's titled Mayor, so wouldn't the mayor position be different from the City Council? The mayor would automatically
Yes, so the mayor would yeah that seat the city treasurer would but for the council member positions Yeah.
Yeah it
we I believe the mayor would look for interest from the council members to determine who would be nominated next
Thank you. Next wave Renee Roth
0:21 – 0:2614 turns
Good evening counsel Let's see, I'm glad to see this is on the agenda and that you're taking action. I'm probably one of the few people in the room who was at the last budget committee meeting, the Budget and Finance Committee meeting when Betsy was there And I did make some comments. I have been following local government budgeting for many years. I used to have a job of implementing financial management systems.
Local government financial management systems. I also issued municipal bonds for the state of Oregon in my past professional life so following the money and the budget and the finance is something that I am interested in And have followed for the city for quite some time. The City Treasurer is the financial manager, and you manage the finances and the investments for the city.
And I do not see the role of the city treasurer being one that has to do with budget and finance. It's a different set of eyes. I used to work in the state of Oregon Treasurer's Office, I know the treasurer Is investing state funds for PERS for the. Retirement for the employees that's a different set of eyes so I would recommend that you don't have the city treasurer so much as maybe the city manager and two council members.
As because those are the people who are going to you're going to work with more closely And I think the city manager should be a major decision maker. And then if I were to throw my hat in the ring for this spot, Betsy and I have had differences of opinion on several different issues in the city. And if it's a majority vote and everybody has to agree, I could see how she would definitely not want me to be on the budget committee, if you can all see my point.
Now, you know there are ways to move past differences and I think it is possible and it's time that we should. But I would hope that this isn't one of those positions where the mayor has the deciding vote and you have to get along with a mayor in order to have a position on the Budget and Finance Committee. I would hope that that's not a restriction for this position.
That's all I have to say thank you
Thank you, Renee. I'm still waiting for you to ask you to go out for coffee many times. So whenever you're ready, I'm ready. OK, let's go on any public comments online.
No mayor, there is no raised hands online.
Okay we will move on to discussion and let's take the staff suggestion that we have three separate motions. So let's begin, you know it's outlined in the staff report first we'll talk about the City Council member then about the system to appoint the city resident and then just one second and then to adopt a resolution affirming
Actually, so it'd be two actions. It'd be adopting the policy and built into the policy. It's section 5 It actually outlines the process to select a community member.
Mm-hmm
So action one would be adopt the policy and the second action would be to appoint the council member and Then there would be no third then staff would be incumbent on staff to advertise.
Okay, so let's uh Let's begin by talking about the policy which includes how to appoint the city resident Would anyone like to put a motion on the table to begin? Yep mayor pro temp
as I understood the instructions Aren't we to affirm that we want to continue with the Budget Committee or we already passed that.
Well I think that's the policy correct? By adopting the policy we're affirming that we want to keep it.
By adopting this resolution you would be affirming that we're establishing this commission under the terms outlined in in the resolution and that this process would move forward.
Okay, I move that we adopt the resolution to move forward with a finance budget committee.
So only
ordinances have second reading so this would be effective tonight.
0:26 – 0:3125 turns
OK we will move on to public comment. Any comments before we vote?
Yep just one. So Bill Miley brought up a suggestion about moving it to 100000 dollars instead of two hundred and fifty thousand. And I just wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts about that before we moved forward with this.
We have pros and cons on that. Yeah like you yeah
Typically these committees, they work in two ways. One of the advantages is having community members involved is oftentimes there's some insight in the business community on some revenue expectations surrounding sales tax DOT that's helpful The other side is the more large-scale programs and projects the city's looking at doing. And I can't really point to any significant project that would be a change in kind of where we're going with our budget that would be less than a quarter of a million dollars.
Okay, thank you. That's the clarity I needed for that.
Any other comments from Council? Councilmember rule. Yeah,
I was just trying to this appointment is how long I Guess everybody has to check
Is in there
I know it is I just couldn't find it quickly enough
terms of resident members shall be for four years and shall serve until the successors have been appointed and qualified and The resident members can serve for successive terms the terms of city officials coincide with their respective offices
And just to clarify, can we
go through the
chair? Are you finished? I would just ask my fellow council members if there was any support for a two year term versus a four year term. Just simply because this is new. We don't know how it's going to play out and it would be easier to kind of figure it out and review in two years. So I don't know how the rest of the council feels about that.
For all offices or for just the resident or
the residents. Yeah, Mayor Pro Tem.
As far as the City Council member. I would have the understanding that when we make assignments at the beginning of the year, that the council member appointment would be one of those assignments that we vote on.
Oh, we're not doing it now?
Well are you suggesting we don't do it tonight? So you're suggesting we don't do it tonight, right? Okay. Let's confirm there's a double negative in
there. My suggestion is that the method for selecting our City Council Representative not the mayor, but city council representative is that it is one of the annual appointments that we make and even though we're late in the year so whoever's appointment it is But you know, we're Yeah, if if we got the right person for the job then we reappoint them In january to continue in that spot
So that we would appoint someone tonight, but this appointment will become one of the rotations that the council decides on in January in terms of appointments. Like Humane Society. Okay, go on.
So I don't necessarily support that or not. What I was going to ask was and I think are we getting ahead of ourselves? Like this is part- Yes. I was going to ask who the current council wants to be
the council member. But that's a separate question. This right now is just the policy what how the policy is formed.
So right now the motion on the floor is whether or not you're going to move forward with this committee in the first place and adopt the resolution. If y'all decide yes, we're going to adopt the resolution then we would pick a council by we I mean Royal Week question number two is you would pick the council member to move forward for whatever the term. Well, so one of the terms in the resolution is how long each of the members serve and that's what's being discussed right now.
And I was responding to a comment about how long the term should be for appointments? Through the Mayor.
Okay, and one option was a council member rule I think that two years because that coincides with the Mayor.
0:31 – 0:4618 turns
My understanding of what council member rule suggestion was is to change the resident member to two years. And then the mayor pro tem suggested that the council member term is moved to the annual appointments so that would mean that you would appoint someone for the rest of the year if you decide to adopt this committee and then come January when you decide where When the council decides what the appoint, the committee assignments are.
A decision would be made at that time for who participates in this committee.
So and basically you don't foresee having a budget committee meeting in November or December so we don't I mean it seems really weird to appoint somebody for two months and then possibly whatever. Basically, we're moving it toward the next council instead of taking responsibility. That's how I
see it. Mayor Pro Tem, would you accept the suggestion from Council Member Ruhl as a friendly amendment?
Thank you.
For a two-year?
Yeah for a two year. We have a motion we have a second and it sounds like we're all in agreement that we would like to get this going the Finance and Budget Committee. So let's go ahead and call the question roll call, please
Roll-call vote Passed 4–0 motion we have a second and it sounds like we're all in agreement that we would like to get this going the Finance and Budget Committee. So · 1 under review
Show transcript
Motion passes.
Wonderful, okay we will go to the second part of the agenda item, the appointment of the council member and I would like to make a motion to appoint Council Member Lange to the Budget Committee. Councilmember Lange is very diplomatic, listens very well and has a business of her own. And you've always expressed a lot of interest in the business community and helping diversify our economy so I really appreciate your efforts as well as your interests.
Was there anyone else that wanted this to be in this role? That's currently on the council and is not leaving in December.
Thank you for throwing that my way, Council Member Francina because at one point I I did express interest in being on the Budget and Finance Committee, but that interest has died. And quite honestly, I completely and 100% trust and support Council Member Lange for that position. Complete trust in her in that position so I have no interest in it and fully support my colleague to the right.
Thank
you. Council Member
Lange? First of all, I just want to thank you all for your confidence and I think you all know how much this means to me that economic diversification is really important to me and working with our business community is as well. And I'm really looking forward to if the vote passes, I would really do give this my
Thank you for your dedication. All right, we're ready for a roll call, please
Roll-call vote Passed 5–0
Show transcript
You
Motion passes
great. Okay, we will move on to our second item councilmember code of conduct and ethics And we have a staff report from our assistant city attorney Taylor Anderson and I just first want to thank Taylor for all your hard work on this This is your specialty and your baby, and I'm really grateful to our Council and staff For bringing this forward and I think it's a really wonderful step forward for our whole community
Thank you. That's very kind of you. Yes, so we're bringing this item forward at Council's request. I have a presentation to cover what we're going to talk about tonight. So I just want to preface before we get started That this is a really important tool for a successful council. And really anybody who has to work together to accomplish a goal by having agreements on how you are going to communicate with each other and how you're going to operate, and being clear about what those terms are is so valuable. And really successful councils have this tool And so I will cover what we worked on. So next slide, please.
Or is there a clicker? Sorry rigid. Okay, so No, we're good So City Council directed staff to provide a first draft of the code of ethics and that's what we're talking about tonight And it was required to include proactive transparency measures city attorney's office specifically mostly me I got to get to know all of you We had listening sessions with each of the council members and the mayor to When we started this effort, I was the new kid in town.
It was my first project that I got to work on with all of you and it was such a great opportunity to get to know each of you individually. I will say on this point what I know to be absolutely true above all else. Little feelings coming out. I work with a lot of people and I can tell you that this council just cares to the very core of their being. And sometimes, you care really loudly at each other but you do care and this community cares a lot and what we have in Ojai is very special.
And it's really, really cool for me to be a part of that as a person who I love government. I've chosen to serve in government and so it's really fun for me to get to work on things like this with you and all of the different projects. So I just would like to acknowledge that here. Ojai is a very special place. I don't say that to all my cities, so please don't tell them.
And y'all have more in common than I think that it feels like sometimes. So this code includes common values and norms that were identified by all of you, and some of them are required by law. You know I can't help it as an attorney we gotta slip those ones in there. We intentionally formatted these as we statements. This model is known as something that I'm totally blanking on right now, community agreements sorry.
Community agreements you are the community here, we statements as a body you take ownership I dreamt about this one and thought about it late at night. It was very important, I think to frame this in we because you act as a body. You don't act as individuals even though each of you as an individual your values and beliefs make up the council. As a whole you are the decision maker.
There we go. I found this really cool tool, so I took a lot of notes of all the things that you said when we had listening sessions and the words that are in giant blue are words that came up the most frequently and then going darker blue came up next and then it would be the light green and you can see here like I said I think y'all have a lot more in common than what you realize And the things that are important to you are consistent. And so, I wanted to make this word map to show you where those things intersect in the common themes that were coming up.
So an overview of how this is formatted. We're going to talk about public interests transparency impartiality civility and respect effectiveness and efficiency commitment to the democratic process conflict resolution confidentiality public resources and accountability So public interest, we act for the common good not personal or private interest. This one is founded in the law I think it's also really important to recognize that what we all do here in this space is a public service.
It publics the first word in it because we're here for the community everything that we do is for their benefit every decision that we make Every dollar that we spend, that is what this is about. And if we are not acting in the public good and we're not making spaces that the public can come and tell us what they think, we are not doing a good job. Right? So creating a space where we're making decisions for their benefit, they know that we're making those decisions for their benefit and not for ourselves.
So we make the public feel welcome and are not partial, prejudiced or disrespectful towards the public. This is a big one if they're not willing to tell us what they think how are we possibly going to make decisions about what will serve them? If trying to think of an example if nobody in town has dogs which I know is a really silly suggestion but if nobody in town has dogs why would we open a dog park Right, and it's those kinds of things of like hearing from the community is very important. And so the way that we communicate with each other in the community is making sure that they feel welcome to not only email us to come forward in public comment.
It's not arguing with them when they come to the dais. It's being an active listener, so active listening is making eye contact when they come to the dais. It's not being on your phone when people say things that we don't like. Obviously things happen where you need to be on your phone but being a good listener, being an active listener and showing them that we care.
We follow all relevant laws Again the legal thing sorry I got to slip it in there. We've all the relevant laws and regulations to the public officials including those related to public meetings financial disclosures and conflicts of interest. This is a no brainer. It's the Brown Act it's the political reform act. It' s all. It''s all the things that we covered in the AB 1 2 3 4 presentation.
Okay, so transparency. There's Ralph Brown again. So we conduct public meetings and make decisions per the Brown Act to ensure accessibility to the public. So everything happens out in open. We're not making secret decisions. Things that happen in closed session are supposed to be in closed session and we are being transparent about the reasons that we make decisions.
We notice meetings appropriately which partially is staff but we work together to produce a Brown Act meeting. We clearly explain the rationale considerations data and any outside influences behind our positions and decisions this one came up a few times in my discussions with you that transparency about where you're getting your information and how you are getting to your decision is really important for a lot of the council members so You know, I read an article in the New York Times yada yada yada. Yeah, I went to a community meeting and that community meeting really and I heard public comment and we had a discussion with the public and it really informed my decision you know so being transparent about why you know I come from a home yeah I don't know I come from a home where this was a problem, right?
You don't have to share personal things but being just transparent about your experiences and why you are making the decisions that you're getting. You're making sorry. There we go. Okay impartiality so we don't use our official positions to influence government decisions which we have material financial interests or personal relationship This is a legal one.
This is from the Political Reform Act and a few other of the conflict of interest laws. So we covered it in AB 1 2 3 4. It goes back to the reason that those rules are in place so that we're making decisions for the public benefit and not for our own benefit. And we're being transparent about them and recusing ones necessary to avoid conflicts of interest. We refuse gifts or favors that could compromise or appear to influence our judgment. Again this one is good practice and required by law. You don't want to do anything you don't want to give anything to someone that wants something from you and you don' t want to take anything.
I'm sorry I said it backwards. You don't want to give anything to someone that you want something from and you don''t want to take anything from someone that wants something from you right? So we don't want Our decisions to be tainted by the presence and favors that we're getting right well of course councilmember so-and-so approved. That permit on appeal they get massages at that parlor twice a week right and I know they get free one sometimes because they go there Public perception to cloud the decisions that you're making.
We ensure fair hearings by allowing parties the opportunity to present their case, to respond to evidence and to be heard without bias. This is me I'm sorry sneaking in due process. It's a really important part of what you do is to sit as a fair decision maker who's unbiased Where you wait to make a decision until you come to this dais and you hear all the information, and then you make a decision. You're not making a decision before you get here based off the court of public opinion or based on hearing from only one side only right? So it's disclosing ex parte contacts. It's recusing yourself if necessary. It is at least allowing the parties to respond. And I'm not going to go too far.
It like my mind made it move forward too far. OK
0:46 – 0:564 turns
we did it
all right civility and respect. This is a big one. This is Robert and his rules, this is Rosenberg and his rules. This is the cornerstone of a efficient and productive meeting. The way we talked about this in the AB1234 training about not attacking staff and not attacking each other and the consequences of doing that. I won't rehash all of that but I will note here Where we have a space where there is conflict.
A few things happen. One. Kids in this community and the youth are not going to be encouraged to participate in government and participate with the council which is really disheartening. We need our youth to want to grow up to engage with government to trust government and to participate in government because that's how this whole system works right. It's really hard on staff.
Right. It doesn't just affect council when council is having a hard time. It affects all of us. It is really draining, it's very stressful to have a council who is at odds with each other and it's very stressful to have a commission that's at odds with each other and that attacks staff or even attack the public and that goes to the last piece Civility and respect with each other is a trickle-down effect. You set the tone for how the community treats staff, and how the community treats you, and we treat each other. So you're sending a message that treating each other with aggression and name calling and not having a civil discussion about what our differences are is okay. And it's not okay. Right? That's not a fun space to be in. It's not productive.
It's really, really hard to come to a consensus when people are raising voices, when we're getting angry. You can have a difference of opinion. You should have a difference of opinion. That is what democracy is. But there's a way to have a difference of opinion where you're not Hurting each other and hurting the community. When I was younger, my birth mom told me a story of putting nails in a fence. And this little boy said mean things. And every time he said a mean thing his dad made him put a nail on the fence. And then he made him go and take all the nails out.
And he's like OK make the fence whole again. He's like I can't do that. The best you can do is patch it. The fence will never be the same if you continue to put holes in it, so if you can find a way to not put the nail in there in the first place and work together as a group we can be a lot more productive in making decisions for this community and getting- We got a lot of really cool stuff to get done right? And I just, I can't say enough good things about the stuff that's in the works. The stuff that city manager team is working on and all of the departments and staff just really cares about driving things forward but if things get stuck at the dais and they can't move forward you know we can't do all those cool things and that lack of a better word that's a bummer so There we go.
Okay, so with that we focus on discussions on issues not personal conflicts it's not about people it's about the issues it's not about personal attacks we're talking about you know what I really think that council members should only serve for two years on this committee okay well I don't like the color of your shirt Right. That doesn't have to do with what we're talking about, right? It's really important. You know what I really disagree.
I think it's important that we have a fresh perspective every year on this. It should be one year, right? You know what? I think the experience and the value of being on the committee for four years is super important and you really don't understand a committee until you've been in it for a couple So I think something different. That's okay, it's okay to have a difference of opinion, it's not okay to attack each other.
Again piggybacking on that idea we prioritize effective council functioning over personal differences. It's not about you, it is about this community and prioritize the way that you speak to each other so that we can come to a decision so things can move forward or staff can get direction to fix it. We communicate respectfully during public meetings, on social media, in the media and all other times by avoiding personal attacks, derogatory remarks, interrupting others using profanity and raising our voices. I don't want to beat a dead horse but for all the aforementioned reasons right it trickles from the top how you treat each other is how the community will treat you and how the community will treat each other and staff And then we allow all community members to express their opinion before a decision is reached.
This is really important, in my experience on bodies where the intensity can be raised you have Less of an opportunity for the council members who aren't going to elbow their way in and fight their way into the discussion. Not everybody is like that, so making space for all viewpoints to be heard. Willing to force their way in, right? And they shouldn't have to.
You should be allowed to be an introvert and be on the council, right? You should be able to raise your hand like everybody else and have your—an opportunity for your viewpoint to be heard. Oh, that worked. Okay, effectiveness and efficiency. Above all else, be efficient, right? I say this too much, but bureaucracy at its finest. We want to be an efficient government. We want to be able to serve the community efficiently and some of that comes with council making efficient decisions and having efficient meetings.
I know I can speak personally that after a certain point in the day my brain stops working so the longer the meetings go right? The less likely it is for everybody to be at their best So having an efficient meeting I think is a very very important part of your job. But that is a team effort to pull that off and with not only you but with staff so we seek common ground build a consensus and develop solutions that serve the community.
We avoid repeating previous points and building on prior discussions acknowledge that point was made and move on. This next idea is trash or treasure. Well, the whole thing's trash or treasure. I hope you treasure it because I worked real hard on it and I dreamt about you in this code of conduct for quite a long time. So I feel quite strongly and in my experience that adding formality to your process would be beneficial for you. You don't have to add it in this way. My recommendation is to limit the time that council members speak to five minutes, you could also do three minutes because that's what the public is offered.
So you get five minutes at a time from an unlimited amount of times to queue up. You can waive the provision by majority of the council. You give priority to members who haven't spoken yet and you have to all be recognized by the chair so however you slice this however you do it I think formality would be really helpful. Formality I think, I'm going to back up.
Y'all know each other? I've seen that time and time again this town is very very close knit and so it's I think it's easy to be comfortable with each other and that informality sometimes can lead to problems in the discussion By allowing everybody their time to speak, it gives space to all ideas without interruption. It allows for all viewpoints to be heard. It allows the chair or mayor to control the meeting. So if a couple council members have queued up, you know what?
Council Member Mara, we haven't heard from you this evening. Could you share your thoughts on the matter and giving space... Like love it! Five stars. It allows for that space and for pause, right? And then you get your time to speak. Yes, Council Member Francina.
I want to wait until you finish your train of thought on effectiveness and efficiency, and then I want to make a request.
OK, sure. So again with the formality, Rosenberg's rules is a tool. Roberts rules is a little cumbersome but Robert Rosenberg's rule, same idea right? By having motions by everything going through the chair it allows for an efficient meeting. It allows for space Space for all the viewpoints to be heard. And I think in my experience seeing meetings, space is something that this council has difficulty with. So if you adopt everything, anything, I would encourage you to be more formal in the way that you conduct meetings and respect that formality. I think it would be very helpful for you To add civility in the space where sometimes we feel very passionate about a decision that's being made. And because we feel so strongly about it, civility goes missing.
Council Member Francina.
0:56 – 1:0912 turns
I would like this is the fifth point. And I would like to just pause for a moment. And first of all, you know, normally we hear the staff presentation and it's already a lot to absorb. And then we don't ask questions until after public comment. But so much was said, I would like permission to comment for a minute or two before I leave because it's hard for my brain to move on until I've said something about this. So first of all, on the point of the public interest, to my way... First of all, I agree Wholeheartedly with these ideals. Okay, but I also want to bring it about talk about real life Okay And the public to my way of thinking the public interest is not just the current public But the future public yes and the current public may vehemently Disagree with what we think is best for the future public Just want to raise that as a you know an item too pause to think about.
And then the thing about all of these points, of course are totally connected Point on impartiality, yes it's clear that we shouldn't be taking gifts from the public and have obligations but reality is completely different because and I've experienced this in a fairly, I would even characterize it as a traumatic way. Okay, we're supposed to come to the meetings without our mind being made up. But in reality, most of us are sitting here because we have a campaign team and we have donations that are public you can look them up when we start getting $20,000 to sit here You know, that's just on average now in order to win a seat in certain elections. You have to spend a lot of money and you have a whole team of people and they expect you for the next four years to abide by your original platform.
And if during one of the meetings you change your mind and it's different from what, you know, they discussed with you few hours ago all hell can break loose and I don't know how else to say it. In reality, this council feels a sense of being beholden to a certain group of people. It's very hard as you sit here and I hope to think that I have changed in the 12 years that I've served and then I can be independent but it is...
I don't know the solution, but it is a problem when you campaign donations are not considered illegal gifts. But yet you are required to
recuse if a decision comes before you. No, you're required to recuse if a decision comes before you and you've received more than $250 in campaign contributions.
Can I interrupt for a second, though? I do feel like we're veering into discussion. So can we wait till the end of the presentation and then we'll take public comment? Yes. And I
requested that we veer into this discussion because so much was said that is ideal but it doesn't match with reality necessarily. But I think I've said enough. You know, I think that I just want to acknowledge the reality of being beholden. You know when you first especially when you're new to a certain to the people that put you in office and that's you. That's not just here. It's statewide it's national it's just no. That's why we have corruption in government.
Thank you Miss Anderson. You want to continue? Thank you councilmember.
Thank you for allowing me to speak.
I just would like to acknowledge though, even though it's hard. It's still your responsibility as a public official to do those things and find a way forward. The timing impeccable commitment to the democratic process. We respect majority decisions even if they differ from our personal views I know that can be hard when we feel so strongly about decisions that are made when we're so closely connected to the community but not taking decisions personally when they don't go our way We actively listen to and consider all viewpoints and contributions with respect. It's not talking over each other, it's allowing everybody to be heard.
This idea appears a few times in a few different ways. There we go. Conflict resolute, we're almost done I promise. Conflict resolution, we prevent conflicts from escalating and affecting operations or relationships. We resolve conflicts through dialogue mediation or other means Something I want to know also about all of these things, these are skills. They're not always things that come to us naturally but they are things that we can get better at. This is a muscle, it is a muscle you can exercise.
Preventing conflicts is one of the quads right? It's one of the bigger ones, it's one of the more important ones. Same thing with resolving conflicts in a civil manner Confidentiality, we handle confidential information with care ensuring it's only used for its intended purpose and protected from unauthorized disclosure. This appears in the law a couple times over.
You're not allowed to use confidential information you gain as a public official for a pecuniary interest meaning you get money from it. What happens in closed session stays in closed session. It's like Vegas. Public resources, we don't use public resources including staff time equipment or funds for personal political or private gain. This is a huge no-no the consequences under the law I think it's three times the cost of the illegal use and there's a few other very serious Consequences. Accountability, this is a big one for you as a group. You're all responsible individually and collectively for holding yourselves and each other accountable to the code.
That means you yourself hold yourself to the code when not weaponizing but holding each other accountable. Hey we agreed that we weren't going to use bad words Please don't use bad words. We agreed we were going to let all viewpoints to be heard, right? Calling each other in a very respectful way. Violations will be or this mouse is like very sensitive I'm sorry so violations are outlined in the ordinance they're not in the code that was intentional. I wanted the code to be something that is set apart from the resolution itself there we go.
There we go. Okay, so enforcement I'm going to pause here. You as council members have very little that you can do to each other if something goes wrong and that is because you are put into these jobs by the people of the city. The only way you can be taken out of this job is by the people of the city. That is the ultimate punishment is recall or you can choose to vacate your seat.
These tools are things that we've used in other jurisdictions. They're not very robust because you don't really have a ton of power over each other. I'm going to be honest with you, this is tantamount to public shaming and taking away cool stuff that you get to do as a council member. That is really what the Council can control We have other jurisdictions that we work in. I joke, we took everything but one of the council members' ties and he's still acting a fool so...
And he's still in office nobody's recalled him so you can use these tools but they are very limited what's important is that you hold each other accountable and we don't weaponize these things And and turn this into something that it shouldn't be. This is something to be productive, but any two council members can request an agenda item. About enforcement. If they believe that another council member has violated these rules, you have to include the specific charges the discipline is based on and supporting evidence in the staff report. The agenda item can choose three courses of action initiated discussion of a council member conduct and the Council expectations proposed Council protocol to be clarified maybe the rule wasn't good Maybe we need to do better and clarify what we meant when we said the thing, maybe we found a hole in it.
That happens sometimes when we write codes or propose initiation of a disciplinary action. Whoever the council member is subject to the enforcement has an opportunity for rebuttal. They'll receive a copy of the agenda item within 10 business days You can address the matter, they may address the matter in writing at the council meeting or both. And then any written materials must be published in the agenda packet no later than 72 hours before the meeting. Discussion so at the public meeting council has to review the complaint in a public meeting if alleged conduct violated the code intentionally and repeatedly And then if a majority votes for sanctions, any council member can make a motion to overturn the vote to impose sanctions. Majority vote of the council present can remove the vote from the record.
If not overturned, the vote's part of the administrative record. Motion to overturn the vote to impose sanction has to be taken at the same meeting that the vote was made. So sanctions like I said you can have a formal... Been talking for a long time. A formal censure? Formal censure? Is really a public acknowledgement that someone has done something wrong and they need to stop, right? Makes the public aware, makes the council member aware.
You get loss of current committee assignments and are barred from future committee appointments within the city or other agencies. Restrictions on travel which may include you can't... You get your travel requests denied limitations on the types of official travel will be authorized And there she is again, my little bit monkey. Any
questions? Thank you Ms. Anderson much appreciated do you want to take questions now?
You know what let's let the public I have a feeling that we are going to get into a discussion so if you wouldn't mind could we take public comment first and allow the public to speak and then council can ask questions because i think it will trickle into a discussion
okay
good
okay let's uh we'll begin with Jesse Austin then Andy Gilman and then Jojo Catlett Catlett. Thank you.
1:09 – 1:168 turns
Hi, my name is Jessie Austin and I have lived in this valley for over 30 years. I'm here tonight to speak about ethics per the administrative report from City Manager Ben Harvey and Assistant City Attorney Taylor Anderson quote council members actions and decisions significantly affect the community's trust and effective governance of the city. This report also states that quote transparency civility and ethical conduct are indispensable to the effective functioning of the City Council Given these statements by our city employees and council members, I am shocked and disappointed by the recent changes being made to the Recreation Department in a closed session meeting.
Your Code of Conduct states that you quote clearly explain the rationale considerations data and any outside influences behind your positions and decisions yet major changes are being made to a cornerstone program in our community Ojai Valley Gymnastics without any clear explanation or data provided to the people affected by this It is my understanding that these decisions were made after you were provided false background information that was not properly vetted by the City Council or the city manager before decisions were made.
This is irresponsible and dangerous and does not instill trust in our local government. And so, quote, whereas the purpose of a code of conduct and ethics is to assure that council members while exercising their office conduct themselves in a manner that will instill public confidence and trust in the fair operation and integrity of the city I urge you to clearly show us, your constituents, the reasoning behind this very detrimental decision and to ensure that any future decision-making that affects hundreds of children and their families is given ethical treatment of issues that impact them.
And bring back the Parks and Rec Commission immediately. Thank you.
Thank You Jessie next we have Andy Gilman then JoJo Catlett and then William Wyrick
Hello Council and staff, Andy Gilman. I totally support this. I'm really really behind it and happy to see it At some point it would be interesting to get I'm suggesting some public comment if it's approved And goes forward just a chance for the public to maybe fill in any blanks that haven't been thought of That's just a suggestion and then I thought once it does get published There could be reminders at meetings and even some printouts in the back for people as this becomes our norm.
And then, this is a minor point but it's 5.2 and that is repeating content so I'm saying two, that's the second bullet point of number five and what I have noticed, I don't have it in front of me but it's basically repeating arguments that have already been made I've noticed it seems we've gotten in the habit of when the consent item comes on an ordinance, when someone wasn't happy with the vote they bring it out of consent and that whole conversation happens over again without new information. So it seemed like possibly an abuse of consent but anyway I wonder if this 5.2 addresses that? That's sort of a question.
And then I thought whoever drafted things on the back table there were a couple of interesting additions you might consider when you think of your final that were up there. Thanks appreciate it.
Thank you, Andy. Next we have JoJo Catlett then William Wyrick and then Bill Miley.
I'm going to fumble but bear with me. I appreciate this meeting tonight. I am fully in favor of adopting the Code of Ethics presented. I think currently this is an important thing to adopt because it's my understanding That recently the City Council met to discuss a private memorandum to phase out our local gymnastics program and close session. I read the memorandum presented by Matt Davis and Mr. Harvey, and there were obvious falsities that were discussed in the memo. It's unacceptable in my opinion to hold a meeting behind closed doors Discussing how to shut down our program without community input.
It seems dishonest, lacks transparency and I believe there's a need to reestablish the Parks and Recreation Oversight Committee because I think that's an ethical aspect of our city governance that has been dismantled. I have spoken with several people who have submitted applications to serve on the Rec Commission Council and none of them have heard back At the beginning of this ethics presentation, something that was mentioned stuck out very strongly to me.
Proactive transparency as a community member I feel deeply like this council was not transparent to your community. The meeting did not feel like it accommodated or benefited the public's interest. There is a want for a local gymnastics program and for some reason you are meeting in closed session to take that away from our children thank you
Thank you, Jojo. Next we have William Wyrick and then Bill Miley and then Jessica Omish. Thank you, Jessica.
I think by example we have, I'd like to provide what I think is a whole in this enforcement mechanism. You recall that referendum are possible within a certain time period with a certain percentage of registered voters to challenge an ordinance passed by this council if the community as a whole feels the council as a whole has not behaved in the community interest that's built into our ordinances, built into state law I believe Similar in this situation, we have by example a decision made by the five of you apparently.
Which anybody can read the California League of California Cities guidelines on the use of pending or potential litigation exemption to the Brown Act which states The purpose of 54956.9 is to permit the body to receive legal advice and make litigation decisions only It is not to be used as a subterfuge to reach non-litigation oriented policy decisions. Arguably, the public may read this, see the actions that have been revealed in the press and believe that what is the avenue for citizens to challenge a policy decision arguably made in closed session that people think shouldn't have been done that way? Perhaps something to add to the enforcement mechanism is a percentage Of registered voters like can challenge an ordinance, a percentage of register voters to at least get it on the agenda.
If not a single council person wanted to put it on the agenda to discuss the situation because as you know, The remedy for a Brown Act violation is to vacate the action. and start over. That's the most common remedy. Second of all, I think that the introduction of the proposed additions to ethics documents have to do a lot with definitions of speech and judgments as to what's accurate, misleading, misrepresentations et cetera. I think it reflects an ongoing failure to understand the essential absolutist nature of our Constitutional Republic's First Amendment And therefore, I think that if you're going to include something like this, it basically pretty much amounts to a speech code.
That you only do that with a censure vote of a supermajority rather than a simple majority because of that importance of our First Amendment and our Constitutional Republic. Thank you.
Thank you Bill. Next we have Bill Miley then Jessica and then Rebecca McBride. Thank you, McMahon. Thank you, Rebecca.
1:17 – 1:237 turns
Hello. Interesting. I'm the only one on the comment page today. Other than this unauthorized or unauthored proposed additions to ethic document. That's really interesting because I thought you all, you always had to author something that went on the comment page of the website for a City Council meeting. So here it is and it seems to me that it should have been published 72 hours ago not today and not presented to the public tonight This council and commissioners, and commissions have recently experienced ethic training as I understand.
This attorney presented code seems as if it is brand new. I don't see it as being brand new. We've had ethics in codes for years. In fact, in the foyer of the old city Council chambers, there's a poster up there that says Code of Ethics or Code of Conduct. It's good that we're having this as a readopted updated code of ethics. I do not see it as new. I would like to see this put together in one complete document, presented again to the City Council made available on the website to all the people in the city of Ojai before it's adopted. Thank you.
Thank You Bill next we have Jessica and then Rebecca
Thank you for holding a meeting regarding ethics. I support the council and all city employees adopting a code of ethics, just wish that it were retroactive. Children and youth were mentioned not wanting to engage in participate in or trust local government. The majority of you sitting here in front of me tonight have spoken on the record of the importance of transparency.
However our youth are currently being negatively impacted by recent lack Of ethics potential Brown Act violations. Excuse me that are against the public's best interest, transparency and impartiality. They also lack democratic norms. I hope to see less closed door meetings and secret memorandums that prevent the public from commenting on issues that affect them.
I hope the City Council, the city manager and the park manager adopts a code of ethics that are in the true spirit of this resolution. Thank you.
Thank You Jessica next we have Rebecca
I'm not prepared for this. I just want to bring up something that happened today it was like two and a half three hours ago and I live next to Daly Park on White Oak as Betsy knows. We've had a problem with dogs off leash we've had some animals that have been killed Cat two chickens and somebody who's been bitten. It's really hard to enforce it there are signs posted all over that you know if you see one person with your dog off leash everybody kind of joins in you know and it looks fun. You can visit with your friends and your dogs run around but I ran into Leslie I have At different times over the last year, two years I approached Betsy and I talked to Rachel about it because they come with their dogs.
And they're very understanding and kind we talked about you know Ojai needs to build a dog park in the city limits just different things we could do. And I approached Leslie because she had her dog out there barking and she was madly trying to do yes on zero signs And I asked her to put her dog on a leash. Well, first I just said you know you have to have your dog on a leash and she said no. I said it's the law. She said she didn't care and she just didn't have time to even talk about it.
Now I live right there. Her dog was barking at her and she was totally, she was so rude to me. I wasn't rude to her. I went up and I asked her, I mean, she could have said, I'm just going to be here for a minute or she could've put our dog on a leash. She could have said, you know, nice to meet you. You live in Ojai? I've been here for 65 years. And um, she was completely rude.
I had to call the police finally. And then she left. But I just want to say that she's the rudest person. And I know. Nobody will say it you have to work with her but I'm sure she's like that with people she works with and her family and anyone else who disagrees with her. She's just a terrible person. And. I don't think he should be able to talk to someone like that and say it's OK to break the law.
Thank you.
Thank you, Becky. Any comments online? Ms. Morrow?
No Mayor there are no comments online. Okay so we will I'm sorry hold on. There is one. Steve Colomy Go ahead Steve
1:23 – 1:3215 turns
Had to change the audio setting. I'm not there because I'm still recovering from surgery. I just wanted to say that this was one of the best presentations that I have heard by our Assistant City Attorney, who is very clear, extremely well-developed and I wanna congratulate her and the staff for outstanding presentation. Thank you.
Thank you Steve. That's it? OK, we will move on to discussion. And before we start, I would just excuse me. I'm going to finish and then you go. I would just like to say once again, thank you to Ms. Anderson. And I really love your metaphor about don't put nails in the fence. So as we move forward in council in discussion, let's do our best to focus on policy and not personality. And, you know, we all love Ojai. We want to do the best for Ojai so let's work on the best code of conduct for Ojai that we can we can do. So
yes, Council Member. I'd like to respond to the public comment very briefly. I apologize you came at me with the most negative energy I have ever felt. My dog was barking because you were sitting there talking to me. There was a dog there off leash. I realize now that you guys have changed but daily has always been a lot of dogs off leash. I rarely go there You know, so you called me a B-I-T-C-H. You said you were gonna call the police.
I was as passive aggressive as I could possibly be. I never said a word to you except for go ahead and do it and the other thing I said to you was I do not believe that humans are the only ones that have the right to freedom. That was my response to you as to why my dog was not on a leash. I did not say anything else to you
Yeah, I'm sorry. We're
gonna we're gonna This is not a good way to start the discussion on the code of conduct so everybody in the room We're gonna take a deep breath together at the same time okay? And I'm going to count to three and Everybody is going to breathe in okay ready one Two, three and then breathe out. One two three we are going to reset Wipe the slate clean, and we're going to have a discussion on the code of conduct for this council. And stay on the agenda item. I will sing if we get into bickering. I don't want to have to get there. So let's keep civility. Let's keep things on point, okay?
Thank you very much. All right, who would like to begin talking about the Code of Conduct?
Before
I make my
comments,
I want to make a comment for those who
came here to talk about The parks and rec and the Gymnastics issues There is going to be a public hearing and you know everything's on The table at that public hearing and you'll get the chance to fully discuss with your council what your interests are and will Explain to the best of our ability where we are. And so I don't think that anybody who was in the closed session meeting that we had, it was under the impression that we were deciding permanent things and I can't even recall why we were in closed session But the fact of the matter is, is that I don't think there's ill will on the part of anybody.
Mayor Pro Tem respectfully if we could move on. Yes. I think it's okay to note there will be a public hearing scheduled on the 19th if we could focus on the agenda item at hand. I don' want to get into a discussion about something. I'm
just going to repeat that November 19 so please come. Okay good. Okay, all right. So Council let's stick to the Code of Conduct and comments on that.
So I propose some additions that I would like people to review. I know that it was sent to the council. Mr. Miley, this was sent to the council. I wanted to – I was proposing this during my discussion item and you know, the one thing – and I would like the council to look at this – the one thing that I didn't see I saw a lot of ambiguity. I saw, you know, you have to do something for the public good. Well all I need to believe is that I'm doing it for the public good. So there was a lot of ambiguity in a lot of what was said here. All I need to do is just simply state that I'm doing it for the public good and I can go through instances where, to me, all I need to do is just claim that it's this or it's that But what you can't get away from is what is true and honesty.
So truthful and honest, that to me was something that's fundamental Mayor Betsy and I first had a conversation about what was really important to us. You know, I think that I said truth and honesty was the most important thing to me. And quite honestly, I'm less concerned about how it is couched although I think that it's very nice to be nice but it's not nice to you know Say an untruth in a nice way, right? I mean that's my problem here is there's nothing that says, I will be honest. And I could go through many, many, many written examples of things that were said that were not honest and there was no way to call anybody on them because it's not a value that appears anywhere Right? I mean, you can't mischaracterize events or people without...
You know, and so to me I absolutely feel the need for something that says truth and honesty. Like I said you know these last two years we could go through an unlimited number of examples where things were not truthful and they were not honest. And likewise, as far as media use and public communication. I think it's really important that we decide whether or not we can allow those close to us and associated with us to go online and defame and demean without any responsibility for the actual council person. I think that's really, really... Maybe we decide that's their First Amendment right?
A partner or a spouse can go online, they can say anything they want. Or maybe we say if I can tell you that it's defamation or that it's untrue We have a lot of that. That's why I think what Councilmember Francina was saying is that There's very high-level language, but the actual practicality of what's happening here and on the dais is also something that we should take into account. I really think we have to have truth and honesty. You have to tell the truth.
You can't call somebody something. You can't say something that's not true, right? Because it can be validated. I think you need to be called out on it. So that's why I propose these two additions and I think they're important. I think they're really, really important.
Let's take Council Member Lang.
1:32 – 1:388 turns
I would like to acknowledge your comment that you made earlier. So this document was made available to the public when it was made available to the Council, so the public received it at the same time that the council did which is what's required by the Brown Act. Councilmember Leslie ruled it we do have We had some technology issues later, but we will look into correcting the public comment to make clear that it is Represented online that its council member rule No, that was a technology issue on staff's part I
Okay,
okay we're gonna continue thank you mr. Miley we're going to continue with the meeting councilmember Lang
Okay I love how in just bringing up the ethics As a as an agenda item that were becoming clear more clearer about The reason why we need this Um, and I just want to say that i'm really excited to have this in front of us We you know This is something that i've been wanting to do since day one And we've worked on different iterations of this and taylor. You're the one who came and you brought it all together So I am so grateful for your work and I really want to tell just members of the public and anyone listening uh tonight or later That this the process of of creating this was a was about as collaborative as you can get with the Brown Act.
Every one of our voices and perspectives was brought into this, and I really appreciate how our staff went about this. And I also appreciate the limitations that we have just given free speech and the limitations and the benefits of free speech, and what's acceptable and what's not. And also the limitations of just laws like Brown Act for example. So those are all considered in these.
A couple of things that I wanted to bring up. First of all, One of the things that is the most important to me about this policy is making sure that anyone coming up to give a public comment or emailing a public comment, that they don't feel like there's going to be any retaliation or anything back. Because there are free speech laws that say that we really can't engage in social media and we can't say any much from our perspective. So I think if there is a way to, which I really appreciate the spirit of the social media comments, that if there is a way to add something about social media and about us listening to public comments that gives clearer directives for the way that we treat, like what we're able to respond to and how we treat the public.
So make it more explicit.
So on bullet point number, I apologize. I should have put letters for these. I didn't want to make it too lawyer-y. Bullet point number three under civility and respect number four? So we communicate respectfully during public meetings on social media, in the media and all other times by avoiding personal attacks, derogatory remarks, interrupting others using profanity and raising our voices.
What would be helpful to clarify here? Yeah.
I think I think go ahead city manager
if you want it's just a suggestion. I mean, I think what's always okay So just I'm uh, I don't want to sound like a Luddite here But I'm just going to maybe sound a little bit that um, I always think it's the best practice to avoid chiming in in any social media discussion if you are Council member or a city employee and I say that not because you don't have a right because you do The problem is the public has a hard time divorcing you from your official role And that's and that's the difficulty. So I always recommend not saying anything and you can we could maybe We try to speak with one voice. We have a public information officer for the city, her name is Chrissy Rivera and it's usually she or me that try to speak on behalf of The city but that way we also get away from The Supreme Court effect where you know there's a vote and let's say it's 3-2 or 4-1 And somebody really is passionate on the losing side and feels compelled to talk about that Well a vote of the council's a vote of the council's a vote of the council and that's...we have to respect it so I don't know if that helps or hinders you, but that's kind of the
framework. Yeah, you could do that. You could... I just want to say something. Of course, lawyer-y. You always have the right as an individual to express your personal opinion about things even if you disagree with things at the council. Specifically, I think the second bullet point on council members rule recommendation, I think would be helpful as a starting place that you distinguish clearly between your personal opinions and official city communications when using social media. And then we could add a provision that we agree to not talk about
1:38 – 1:4621 turns
You could simply say something like we strive to respect city council decisions and something like
that. With an understanding that we're, or something to the effect of it's a priority of the council that communications regarding official city communications are transmitted through the City Manager's office?
Wonderful, that would be great.
What was the last
part?
That communications regarding official City Council decisions are transmitted through the city manager's office
Yeah, I'd like to make a comment. Well first I would just like to say thank you once again and also I think Bill Miley brought up that this is not new it's just condensed we as a council however long we've had a council decades right? We've had first we had well now we have Rosenberg's Rules of Order We have the council protocols. We have the handbook for the City Council Commission and Boards, and then we have City of Ojai Councilmember Orientation Materials. So we do have a lot of information and a lot of homework. And so I'm really grateful that all of this can be condensed into something that's more user-friendly. And I loved what you said, that we act for the common good and that we set the tone.
And to me this really—the bottom line is in Rosenberg's Rules of Order which I have quoted in the last four years several times Debate on policy is healthy, debate on personalities is not. And if we could just stick to that I think that we could make a big step forward and a lot of that has to do with self-control. It's really hard to be attacked and not become defensive.
Social emotional skills. That's the one thing that I think is the most important for any council member anyone on a commission Anybody who wants us to be a public servant? That's what we need civility and respect as Miss Anderson are the cornerstone of this And also the point, we're doing this for the staff. Because we have an incredible staff and it's much healthier for the staff when the meetings are civil and respectful and there is no name calling or yelling.
You know, when someone yells everybody else either goes into fight or flight or freeze or faint. That's a really bad place to be in order to make a decision. So it just makes sense if we want to make the best decisions that we possibly can that we do our best to control ourselves and our emotions and really just be civil. And that takes a lot of I would say endurance to just let it go So I support this wholeheartedly and I'm really grateful that you work so hard. And thank you to Council Member Lange, we've worked together on this and I really appreciate all the dedication and your expertise because this is your background, so thank you.
Do
you want to finish your train of thought?
I was just going to finish one last thing, and that is under impartiality. Under the second bullet point, I wanted to add gratuities as well because of the recent Supreme Court ruling. We can just say that you can't accept bribes but you can accept gratuities. Yeah so I'd love to add that word to it as well and that's all I have to add.
So I would like some of the language that council member rule has proposed, you know added as point 11 and 12. And I would like if we could have a little further discussion on you're just going to automatically add it?
No, I have no plans to add it. I would express that I would discourage the Council from implementing rules Related to family. You can only control yourselves you're not able to control your family and then I would know, I think we should have a discussion about the truthful and honest honesty policies. Like I mentioned previously under the First Amendment. Yeah, you have the right to free speech. And unfortunately that right also there's case law unfortunately that supports you have the right to be a liar.
So I just would be thoughtful about maybe we could come to a compromise about what truthful and honesty looks like and seeing if there is a way to get somewhere productive under the First Amendment.
Well, I would. We can't force this but I would highly recommend that those of us who have partners or spouses especially if they're very active on social media that they also are informed about this code of ethics because I have experienced what amounts to defamation of character And I have you know people that are in the legal field. Have told me that I should do something about it but I've chosen not to.
And I and I no longer try not to respond sometimes the statements are so outrageous. That. You know. Lately I haven't responded at all in the past. I've been accused of the most outrageous things by partners and spouses on people Of council members and I. So to bring me back to the point that you just said could I have gone to the city and asked them to make a correct public information officer to make a public correction? Could I have done that?
Let me jump in here. No, we really strive for one-way communication. We recognize that people have a right to freedom of speech and their opinions and that even goes so far as if you allow links to platforms on your city website, you have to allow what could be a negative anti-city or anti-council member dialogue that ensues. You just can't go in there and make this. It's totally inappropriate for the city to do that
OK, so. So I have no recourse to defend myself.
I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at all. You can
write an editorial for the paper,
of course, of course. But just all I'm saying is we what we don't do very often there is something that is published either through a media outlet or by an individual and we might not agree with what it says. This happens quite frequently. And so our recourse as we can put out our own information Right? You're a council member, you have the power of the pulpit. You can make statements during meetings and so forth. But we don't get into back-and-forth and try to... That's just not healthy for anybody.
But it has to be something on the agenda. I can't just willy nilly make comments.
Well...
I'm looking forward to being at the podium!
1:46 – 1:589 turns
Can I ask a clarifying question? So just in terms of Councilmember Ruhl's additions, and thank you Councilmember for adding these. In terms of the legality of this, you're saying that you would recommend that in terms of public communications we only focus on ourselves and not any family members. I can only imagine saying that to my sons, not that they would ever comment on politics. That is correct. Guess what kids?
Kids are known for commenting on politics but yeah. Focusing on your this is council's code of conduct.
Okay and then in terms of the truthfulness and honesty section is there a way that you're I mean what do other cities do in terms of that today? Is that part of other policies or not?
You know in my experience I haven't seen it doesn't mean that it's not out there. I think, I think that most councils are operating from an assumption that people are being truthful and honest in their conduct so they're not regulating it. It's something that I can look into. I can try to come up with something that synthesizes this idea. I was hoping, to be honest with you, that I had captured this sentiment though about where is it? Number four.
It is under number two transparency Second bullet point we clearly explain the rationale considerations data and outside influences behind our positions and decisions To be at least transparent about the information and where you're getting it so that people can verify it on their own
Thank you. Would a council member like to put emotion on the table that we can work? Well, I
yeah, I was gonna discuss
okay So
I agree that most of what's in this Code of Conduct is stuff that should be common sense, that we should all be adhering to. I Think that you know, there there's an issue about You know setting rules and then a willingness to be governed by rules. And so The document is really only as good or successful as it As the people who are Being governed by the document and their willingness to take it to heart, take it seriously.
And I do have my concerns about that issue. We talk about truth and honesty And having a mechanism for, you know, having two people start a complaint against a council member based upon truth and honesty. And I just see that being having hearings over what's truth and honesty would be a horrific thing for our community to experience. I have grand hopes for our next city council, but I could see us just spend meeting after meeting challenging whether somebody's been truthful or honest.
I do have a problem with a few things that I think are You know, maybe ambiguous and potentially problematic. So I think that item 2.2 and item 5.3 potentially are inconsistent So on the one hand, we're saying that when we are gonna vote a certain way on an item that we give a full explanation of why we're voting a particular way. And then on the other hand, we're saying.
You know, don't talk more than five minutes. I know you get a second go around, but it's the two things don't necessarily work well together. I also Let's see, I thought that item 3.1 and the phrase a personal relationship is vague. So if you're going to talk about what influenced you on a decision and there's, you know, a personal relationship How how is that defined I mean, how are you gonna know when you need to be disclosing that?
You had a personal relationship with someone who You know influenced your decisions III I'm not crazy about that particular item My my biggest concern is over number 4.3 Because we're mixing. Our city council conduct. With social media conduct. Which I personally don't engage in social media and. If you know my preference would be that we had a code of conduct that said that we don't engage in social media.
And that we. If we've if there's a need to respond to something in social media, it's raised and run through the city manager as a communication matter. But you know I think that so I think that there is a There's a first amendment issue with respect to how we commute, communicate on social media in the media and all other times by avoiding personal attacks.
I 100% agree with that for purposes of our City Council meetings But I think that we would run into problems regulating, unless we all agreed that we not participate in social media. That I know Sousa believes she's the only person attacked in social media but it's far from true. So no, I know. OK, I'm sorry, but. You know how you respond to, you know? You know.
People making statements that you don't believe are truthful or honest. I'm not a fan of regulating. That response. I'll tell you what I you know, thought about with all of this is I was thinking that I want members of the public who are extremely skilled and have the desire to assist the community to actually want to be a city council member and potentially run.
And I think that we are in a horrible set of circumstances for achieving that, and I don't have a belief that this code of conduct is gonna assist in that. Because if people are going to say whatever they're going to say, and then I don't view this document as really helping with somebody or the circumstance where you're gonna have a well. I think we have way too much.
I'm going to, I'm going to read something and this is from a there's a movie that I really enjoy called the American President and there's a speech in it That I think is a good description for Ojai and a good segment of our politics. And you know, during this speech and I'm just going to read a couple of lines from it says we have serious problems to solve and we need serious people to solve them. And whatever your particular problem is, I promise you my opponent is not the least bit interested in solving it.
He's interested in two things and two things only making you afraid of it and telling you who's to blame for it. That ladies and gentlemen is how you win elections. You know, we need to see and recognize that and how it's playing out in our community. I have to commend our mayor for being someone who has probably been more under assault than anyone I can imagine for the last couple of years You know, I think she's amazingly graceful in her.
You know thank you ma'am may I have another? Thank
you Mayor Pro Tem.
1:58 – 2:0311 turns
You know, I'm gonna support this. The additions, I don't think we should adopt anything on the additions. All of those proposed additions should be run through the city attorney's office with time to think about each and every revision and it can be presented to the next City Council There's also part of me that isn't 100 percent comfortable with. The idea that we're you know setting up some rules and we're going to have two people subjected to these rules in about 60 days who haven't participated in them So I would have rather this came up in the next term.
And I definitely believe that about the Proposed additions, you know which the public really isn't hasn't had the chance to see a comment on So I don't think we should consider those at all. So Did anybody make a motion
not yet? Okay Would you go ahead and make a motion please and then we can move on Yep, you'll be after the motion mayor pro tem. Do you want to make a motion?
Susan wants to comment
Well, first of all, I think this is a great legacy for the next council. So I'm all in favor of approving it and I don't mean perhaps this council would consider just for example on point 11 truthfulness and honesty about we would you consider substituting the word factual and honesty? Just that first line, not the rest but just keeping it simple. And then the first point of number 12 I think that's a great way to summarize the right use of social media.
Where it says we use technology and all media platforms responsibly, ensuring that our online presence reflects the dignity of our office and the emphasis, the values. And I think that's a little bit of a typo, the values of our community including accurate information and lack of insinuation failed or not. I mean, the fact is that social media is the fastest way to reach people quickly. It's like the new town hall.
And I love social media if it's used in a responsible way. So to have this code of ethics and not mention social media at all when it is a big part of our life, not everyone but most people I would say, maybe not even most people but the next generation surely Yeah, so that my with this council consider just the first sentence of point 11 and 12.
Would you like to go ahead and make a motion?
Yes.
I
would like to make a motion to approve the council member code of conducts and ethics as proposed, and I do feel that in retrospect it covers a lot of what I think Council Member Ruhl is trying to say but I would like to say at point 11-12 it's a nice number too Factual and honest. We commit to being factual and honest. That's a good reminder of all the previous points actually it's a summary. And then the point on social media in effect I would put number 12 make number 12 11 and 11 12 does that make sense? Because this is kind of a summary last.
OK we have a motion is there a second for that motion
I will second it. Also, I would like to add gratuities to impartiality bullet point two and some of the language that you proposed for number four
bullet point three yes yes the changes that that you recommend I accept those
2:03 – 2:1222 turns
what are those what were those changes please I'm
looking sorry I'm looking back at my notes right now Oh, it was we distinguish clearly between I think it was actually an addition. It was actually council members rules number 12-2. So we distinguish clearly between personal opinions and official communications when using social media or publicly communicating about other council members. And we agree official positions of the City Council are transmitted through the city manager's office.
Yes, thank you.
Hey we have a motion and we have a second
one other one other question just as this came in to I believe was one of the public comments but I Just when I forgot to mention it before but do we have anything about? the appearance of impropriety Or would that is that is that anywhere in our
No, the phrase appearance of wrongdoing or appearance of impropriety isn't in here but the values are.
Okay okay.
Of recusing yourself when you have a conflict disclosing the conflicts fair hearings complying with the Brown Act so all of those things are the appearance of wrongdoing but we could add something that's more clear about avoiding actions that Give rise to the appearance of, I would say wrongdoing and propriety. Just as a point of comment in that is that
the
more ambiguous these statements are The bigger problem you have with the idea that we're going to end up having city council hearings over whether somebody satisfied that rule or not. So the appearance of impropriety is like, um, that's, you know, one of the problems that I think that I have with this is that ethics for the most part Is self-governed, you know we get guidelines for what our personal ethics are and we're supposed to enforce them and You know appearance of impropriety is something that's actually an admonition to people.
You know for their personal Judgment it's not really so much for the rest of the council to decide and It's certainly something for the public to decide if they want to get rid of a council member because they're engaged in what they believe is inappropriate behavior. But I really am worried about that and you know, two council members making a complaint and having some hearing process at the city council meeting over that complaint
Miss Anderson, I'd love to hear a comment on that one if you have any thoughts. Put you on the spot
no it's OK. I understand where the mayor pro tem is coming from and I think that sentiment is fair. I think that that's why I ended up not putting that phrase in there because it would have required a definition and I tried to be as specific as you can while being broad enough to capture the ethical ideas and issues that this council was facing. So, um, I think that if you are going to add something about the appearance of impropriety we should be clear about what that means even if you're just limiting it to Avoiding conflicts of interest under state law, right?
So that it's a more narrow scope and clear but even then to the point about enforcement there are mechanisms under state law if You didn't recuse yourself and you should have And severe penalties in some cases in most cases actually so Yeah, so
I'm not sure where we are with my proposed additions. I just want to say that I feel like a commitment to facts, I'm definitely willing to take that. over opinions and honesty. And I know that, and I agree that these kinds of things are personal ethics that you have or you don't or that come up if you happen to agree with the position. And the problem with this once again is that if a If something supports your position, you're going to find it to be true and important and those kinds of things. And there's no way that a document like this can actually deal with that.
Can I share the motion with you?
Sure, yeah please.
I think that would be helpful. So Councilmember Francina moved to adopt the Code of Conduct with the following additions. To adopt your 11 we'll call it point one, we commit to being factual and honest in all our communications and actions as councilmembers and that would be number 12. She also moved to add the first sentence of 12 to number 11. And we use technology and all media platforms responsibly, ensuring that online presence reflects the dignity of our office and the emphasis of values of our community including accurate information lack of insinuation veiled or not And then we have a friendly amendment by Councilmember Lange.
To add, we distinguish clearly between personal opinions and official city communications when using social media or publicly communicating about other council members. Have our notes on another page officially agree. We agree official positions of the City Council are transmitted through the city manager's office, and then for section. And I'll add better numbering on this my apologies.
Three bullet number two we refuse addition is gratuities to gifts or favors. So three would be there we refuse gratuities gifts or favors that could compromise or appear to influence our judgment.
Very good. So just as a side note, thank you for incorporating those. I feel that it's very important that we have some accountability to the facts so we don't live in confirmation bias. I just wanted to point out that Rebecca and I had a moment of we're all in this together. So we forgave each other. And I think it had to do with this ethics conversation. Yeah, so that was-
The magic is already working.
The magic is already working, I know. It's so exciting. You made
my whole night. Thank you.
We're like, yeah, it's...you're right. That was just way out of...that was just out of control
for- But let's carry that energy with us, right? Let this not end today. We have a lot of hard decisions through the rest of the year and I'm watching your meetings. Right? Please, I worked really hard to bring you something that I hoped would work for you and I'm hoping. I know that it is not perfect and it should be a living document. The next council should pick it up but I really hope that you all as individuals and bodies, oh my gosh! I've been talking all day.
As a body, you take these things to heart And and you do this, and you live this right. And in the meetings they get better and they get more efficient, and that you talk to each other with respect and we set aside the things that cause us to be so frustrated with each other because individually I can tell you like I know this is very Ted Lasso but your I've gotten to know you're really incredible people who really care about this community and it's really unfortunate when The meetings don't reflect that, you know, so i'm excited to hear This positive energy and I just I hope that you continue to carry it with you through the rest of this term and into the rest of um
2:12 – 2:2117 turns
So I did have a couple other points that I haven't spoken to. Um uh, so um Yeah, I think that we need some sort for transparency. The first bullet we conduct public meetings and make decisions per the Brown Act and ensure accessibility to the public. You know, I have had problems with the Brown Act and you know even after the first thing that set all this off I've had questions about whether or not we were properly, you know, noticing Brown Act. So it's been a problem for me and I have believed that we have been interpreting the Brown Act expansively when the Brown Act says that you interpret it narrowly.
But I don't know what to do, right? Like when I go in there and I'll make a comment And it's like, nope, you're wrong. And I don't think I am. So I either have to get up and walk out because I believe that the interpretation is overly broad or—and so I have to decide that I'm not going to sit there and be in violation of the Brown Act because I truly do believe that it is.
So I don't know what the mechanism is for that. My only option, if I believe it to be a Brown Act violation, is to get up and to refuse to be part of it. But we're relying upon an interpretation. So I am conflicted all of the time. And I do bring it up that I don't believe that this is properly noticed or an appropriate Brown Act. Closed session. But I'm usually, there's nothing I can do about it except for to walk out and I'm not comfortable doing that either so I don't know what the solution is for that honestly I don't know how to deal with that.
I am in a quandary when I believe this so and like I said you know I have believed it So, the other thing under transparency is we clearly explain the rationale consideration. Number two, I would like to see something like an ex parte disclosure like the Planning Commission has to make. You know who they've talked to? Not your friends you know but if you've talked to an organization, if you've talked to a commission, if you've talked to an official You know, if there's something that you're relying upon or a party that has an interest who is lobbying the city for something. Be they a non-profit, be they a community group but they have an agenda and I think you need to disclose that
Are you talking about for quasi-legislative or quasi-judicial decision?
Generally, I am talking about ordinances. But I'm also just talking about decisions that the council makes. I'd have to think about that more closely what I'm really thinking about. Am I thinking about just votes that we take or am I thinking about ordinances? Am I thinking about resolutions? Am i thinking about budget items?
So to be, to be clear the planning decision. They are sitting like a mini
know yeah
judge right on Planning Commission decisions they're known as quasi judicial. That's where the due process rights kick in. Right. Quasi-legislative is ordinances and policy decisions where there is not a due process consideration and requirement to disclose those ex parte contacts in those situations under the Constitution.
Yeah, and I'm not really talking about what is required by law. What I am talking about is what is required by the ethics of this council. Oh no, I'm just trying to
understand what you're
proposing. And I know that they are a quasi-judicial body. I know that because of that they have to disclose ex parte and I know we are a judicial body in some cases or maybe we're quasi but You know, if people in organizations call us up and you know they're our friends and we listen to them. And then we come in and we say exactly what they said I think we should disclose that.
I just I think we need to say you know they have a very specific agenda. I listened to them it was it was you know persuasive or not Yes, Mr. City Manager?
Sorry I just want to jump in the only consideration I'd want you to think about is that we really want you to be available To everyone in your district and sometimes not always You're gonna have people that want to come to you with something but they might not want to be disclosed
And I'm not talking about individuals. Okay. I'm talking about community groups, nonprofits, commissions—I'm talking about official bodies in one way or another. Fair enough. No, definitely don't disclose your constituents coming to you with a concern. That's not what I'm looking for at all. I'm looking for groups that have connections to our council and those connections are never made transparent. That's what I'm really talking about, and I think that we're aware of that, and I think it's important that we say, I talked to so-and-so in this committee or this group, and this is what they told me.
Because we all have friends that are on these who call us up, and we listen to them. And yet we never say our friend who's part of this group called me up. So I've always thought that we should have ex parte disclosures. And once again, if it just comes down to whether or not we believe they're an organization or they're a group, that's fine. As long as we're acting ethically you cannot legislate ethics. I don't know how that happens. You can put up a guideline in the guidepost here and people choose to be honest and fair and true about it or they don't. And there's really not that much you can do about it but I would like it to be in writing that if community, you know, if you are contacted. You know? And...
Okay never mind. Do you
like to offer a friendly amendment?
Yeah I'd like to offer an amendment that in some way when you have an official body or a semi-official body or a community group that acts as a unit and they have a vested interest in how something turns out and you generally know that because they make public comment or whatever That you disclose that, and it's perfectly fine. But I think it's just a matter of transparency.
Council Member Francina would you like to accept the amendment?
Which depends on how it's worded. You know, I mean, I think it's yeah, I would almost automatically say well, I spoke with Jamie at the chamber for example and he recommended this that would be part of my discussion and I think that I think that's a good idea. I'm not quite sure. I have to leave it up to you how to word it And also I want to remind the council this is a living document. The next council can grapple with it some more and fine-tune it. I think we should adopt it, but I too have one other question that was raised by Mayor Pro Tem
Whitman. Can we finish this? My question is are... Is that in other codes of conduct? Do other cities adopt that generally?
Yeah, I think that For ex parte context, anybody that it typically the way the ex parte context works is if it's a quasi judicial decision. So usually permits. Land uses, those are the big ones. Business licenses, appeals, any person that is trying to influence a decision outside of the public hearing is disclosed on the record so that the parties have an opportunity to respond to it. Yeah, right. So but what council member rule is talking about is something broader than that it sounds like for all agenda items that there would be some level of disclosure for community groups businesses I'm assuming nonprofits I'm trying to think if there would be any other groups that would be captured
2:21 – 2:3033 turns
It could be the chamber, it could be commissions. I'm not even sure but I'm really just about decisions when you're taking a vote right? I just think that as part of transparency and as part of openness we should know who's... And I don't mean this to be the way it's gonna sound but I don't know any other way to put it right now is Who's pulling the strings? It's fine if they're pulling the strings. It's perfectly fine, but just disclose who it is.
So the language in 2-2, the second bullet point is quite broad so it's any outside influences besides behind our positions and decisions. So is what you're asking that you want specific examples of who those groups could be? I do. And including but not limited to? I do, yes. So and including but not limited to community groups, businesses?
Yes.
Non-profits?
Yes
And similar community interest groups.
Yeah, community interest groups. I mean you know and Council
Member
do you accept that amendment?
I think that's fine if Taylor doesn't see. Did I say that right? Taylor
like Taylor Swift
yeah if
you don't see it as being problematic So I think that the language in and of itself is quite broad right now, and it captures it. But if you would prefer examples? And I think that it would be I think it would be worthwhile to acknowledge the City Manager's point of this rule isn't intended to disclose contacts of individual community members.
Absolutely not, absolutely not and I don't think that anyone is assuming that and then for number five and I'll try to move a little bit more quickly I do believe that we need to limit the time we speak. And I do it myself, we all do it. We just kind of wander off and then we're 20 minutes later. We don't even know where we started. It has nothing to do with the matter at hand and it's 12 midnight.
You're doing it right now. Good example! I'm giving a really good example. That's correct. Let's wrap it up. Yeah, I do think that the five minute...I support it 100%. It could be three minutes. I would be fine with three minutes. Say your piece, say it succinctly and move on.
Well, and you can always cue back up. You can do three minutes, three minutes. You can say a lot of things in three minutes and yield the floor. I've seen success in other bodies who have done this and it forces you as a council member to make your point succinctly. And then a lot of times too when you get really upset by the time it gets back around, you've had an opportunity to take the three big seconds in and three big seconds out and maybe you're not so upset about it
Yeah, and I also think that it allows for a more holistic discussion. That is if it comes back to you, you can sort of counter points or agree with points or potentially come to a consensus easier because you're not just getting your one time to speak. Exactly. And then you're done. And finally as far as respecting the formality, I most definitely agree And I don't know this would be the presiding officer, but I think that we should be referring to the public by their surname.
I think that part of this out-of-control public that we've experienced over the last two years is because we call them by their first name, we're friendly, you know? I mean, the amount of vetting from the public that I've heard I think that there is some sort of barrier to a surname, a formality to it that might put some control on the ability of everyone to think that they can come up and just trash whoever happens to be sitting here which has been rampant these last two years across the board for all of us.
Okay, hold on. There was a lot of meat and potatoes in that. What part don't you accept? The last part about the
surname.
But we accept the including but not limited to addition to 2-2. Right, which is we clearly explain the rationale considerations data and any outside influences behind our positions and decisions. Including but not limited to community groups businesses nonprofits and similar community interest groups. We started with this rule is not intended to. Include individual community members. I would recommend some kind of limiting language there. Yes. Right. Yeah because sometimes there are very powerful people in the community that I don't think that that's what you're intending to capture where we're talking about when individual.
How do I how do I say this? We're like complaints are coming to you or things intended to be private. This feels very unwieldy as I'm saying it out loud,
so
maybe
scratch that part. Yeah, I think individual council members can do that. And it's and it's encouraged people you know. You know like that kind of information I don't think we should make it mandatory. I don't. I don't want to make that. So for which part mandatory part the new part where individual men OK yeah yeah we don't need to do OK. But if as an individual council member we wish to disclose as much as possible, we can do so. And I do like the five minutes so that you know, we need to understand that if the hour's late, we don't need to take up five minutes. Let's hope we're mature enough but on the other hand, I don't want to be nervous and not be able...I want to be able to complete my thought and sometimes that takes five minutes usually it doesn't.
And I still have one question that I must ask. Mayor Pro Tem, you brought up a very important point where on number three impartiality or a personal relationship. Well, I have a personal relationship with hundreds and hundreds of people meaning that we're friends but it's not like a financial and certainly it so happens Sometimes these we were such good friends that we can totally disagree on political things. So but maybe do we need one more word what is meant by personal
relationship? Yeah or you could just strike it and leave
it to. What were you trying to capture with that because that's my problem is it
yeah
it could.
You
know what?
No. Yeah, so if you don't know you're supposed to be disclosing it you're not going to disclose it and that's
fair To be honest with you I was staring at this for a very long time So I apologize for not catching that Let's see, I think I was thinking of close personal relationships but as I say that out loud It's like okay So under the Political Reform Act, it's limited to your immediate family. Immediate family is your legal partner, so domestic partner or a spouse and your dependent children. It doesn't include your grown children. It doesn't include your cousins or your mom or your dad. Right? So there's an extended group there. I believe that even though that's familial relationship So, I think that's where I was going with that. Where there's this extended group of business partners, right?
That you may not have... You may have a business... Actually, that would be a conflict of interest under the political reform act. So it may be just best to strike that language all together, since it's unclear.
I think that's a go ahead. Well, I'm just going to say it's such a small town. Yeah, no, that's fair. After teaching here for 20 years, so many of my students and parents. Yeah. Everybody. Yeah I would be against going
with familial because a lot of times you have estrangements or you have family members at odds with one another, or family dynamics where it wouldn't be a conflict of interest.
And so I would be against family relationships.
2:30 – 2:327 turns
Okay. I'm going to make a suggestion that we call the question and remember that this is a living document and we can, uh, we'll just keep working on it. So roll call please.
Roll-call vote Passed 5–0
Show transcript
Motion passes
Okay, wonderful. All right well thank you all and we uh no council member just remember everybody Ojai day is on Saturday so come to the dunking booth We'll see any city manager report?
No, just want to make sure that Public is aware. We are having a meeting to discuss the gymnastics program proposed changes again It's on the meeting in between the two meetings in November Tuesday November 19th 6 p.m.. Here at Kent Hall And we'll make sure that some publicity has put out there so people are aware Thank You
Thank You mr. Harvey councilmember Lang Councilman report
Yes, I just had one thing to add and that is Ames with St. Francis Challenge said that they are looking for interns and volunteers at the tent town. And they're also looking at programs starting programs for adopting a tent and things like that. And so you can I'll post this on my social media and on my website and anyone could find this out
A couple of the Mayor's Youth Council members are volunteering, which is fantastic. Okay, we're good? All right, thank you all for a productive and civil meeting. We are adjourned.