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Roll call — called by Unidentified speaker 8
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Agenda Discussionitems moved / continued / pulled — click to expand
Any objections to the agenda or approval of the agenda for our special session?
I'll move approval.
Second that. Any objections? Okay. We will go on then to the first item, our public hearing, appeal hearing to uphold or overturn the tax collector's determination dated April 8th, 2025, enforcing the TOT and penalties and audit findings against Cameron Larner, business owner of Sunido Inn. Ms. Burgess, would you take over now? Thank you.
Yes, good evening. Bethany Burgess with the City Attorney's Office. So the purpose of tonight's hearing, and I just, you know, at the beginning of these public hearings, I like to make sure I remind you of what the scope of your review is tonight. So you will be asked to consider today whether pursuant to sections 8-1.431 and 8-1.432 of the Ojai Municipal Code, Whether the determination of the tax collector was correct or not, and if not, what tax interest or penalties, if any, are due to the City from the appellant.
Before we kick it off, our procedures tonight, we will start again with ex parte disclosures, as we did in the last City Council public hearing. There will be a presentation from City staff, which is going to be provided by outside Council with They are representing staff. I have not been involved in representation of staff on this matter. Then we will have the presentation from the appellant.
Then we will take
public comment, which is a little different than our last public hearing. And then following public comment, we will allow the City to provide rebuttal arguments, the appellant to make their rebuttal arguments, and then we'll open it up for Council questions before we close the public hearing. I would say that while our procedures contemplate questions will occur after the end of the presentations, if the presenters are comfortable taking questions during the presentation, I also don't object to that.
But I do want to be mindful of the fact that if they have a prepared presentation, that it can be helpful to let them get through that before we open it up for questions. And then following council questions, we'll close the public hearing and then move into council discussion and deliberation before closing out each matter. And there will be two separate hearings.
The first one on the agenda is for the Sunido Inn, and then the second one is for Casa Ojai Inn. Are there any questions about that? Go ahead.
If there is similar content either from the city or the appellant in principle, not in detail, that is the same for both hearings, might we be able to offer either the city or the appellant to say there's no need to repeat yourself if something that's clear and understood?
I would say that's fair. I think instead of presenting the exact same information again, that it would be appropriate for them to refer to their previous presentation.
Thank you.
That will move to ex parte disclosures.
I have something funny, which is in 2012, I designed a website for Mr. Jeffrey Welts, who is here in the piece. So that was a long time ago, feels like ancient history, but there it is.
And one other thing I will disclose on behalf of all of Council is that all of Council did receive some communications from the appellant. I think he's aware that those would need to be disclosed as ex parte communications. We did share those with OMLO for purposes of ensuring that there's fair due process on both sides.
And we did receive all, I received that. I assume everybody did. Any other ex parte communications?
When this first came up, I think in September of last year, I did get an email from Mr. Larner. I do not remember what it said other than, we have a problem here. And I did not respond and or have any communication from them because one of the properties is in my district.
Okay, so then shall we open with the city staff presentation? And I would ask Mr. Montgomery to use the timer. Yes, 30 minutes. Okay. Thank you.
Would it be preferred for me to sit here and speak?
Whatever is easier for you, I think.
I think where you're sitting is fine.
Yes. Yeah.
Good evening, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem, and Council Members. My name is Chelsea Ballot with Olivares-Madruga Law Organization. Together with my colleague Shelly Preissler, we are presenting City Staff's argument that the tax collector's determination dated April 8th of 2025 should be upheld, assessing $11,423.37 in tax and penalties against Cameron Lardner, the appellant and operator of the Sioux Nido Inn, Located at 301 North Montgomery Street in the City of Ojai, a copy of the tax collector's determination is included in the administrative report as attachment I.
This argument begins with a history of the City's transient occupancy tax. I'll then provide a factual background leading up to this appeal, and then finally an assessment of the appellant's arguments. The City is authorized under California Revenue and Taxation Code Section 7280 to impose and enforce a transient occupancy tax on hotels located within the City.
The City's uniform transient occupancy tax codified in Title 8, Chapter 1, Article 4, and the Ojai Municipal Code was first adopted and imposed in 1971 at a rate of 10%. In March 2020, City voters elected under Measure C to increase the tax to 15%, And to expressly confirm that the definition of rent shall include resort fees, cancellation fees, and parking fees, and other fees tied to occupancy consistent with the City's longstanding interpretation of rent and tax assessment methodology.
As amended by Measure C and reflected in Ojai Municipal Code Section 8-1.407, the City's definition of rent is, in part, the consideration charged, whether or not received, for the occupancy of space in a hotel, inclusive of resort fees, cancellation fees, parking fees, and other fees tied to occupancy of a space in a hotel. I would like to quickly mention that any code section I refer to is a reference to Title 8, Chapter 1, Article 4 of the Ojai Municipal Code, a copy of which is included in the Administrative Report as Attachment O.
A copy of the March 2020 election results and the certifying resolution adopted April 14th of 2020 is also included with the report as Attachment A. The Sunido Inn is a hotel as that term is defined in Section 404. The appellant is a hotel operator as that term is defined in Section 408. Pursuant to sections 410 through 419, the appellant is responsible for collecting 15% tax on all rent-charged transient guests, holding the collected tax in trust for the City, and reporting and remitting these taxes to the City on a quarterly basis.
The TOT is a significant portion of the City's revenue and failure to collect required tax undermines the City's financial stability and hampers the City's ability to achieve strategic goals. The City's Finance Department is responsible for monitoring and enforcing the City's Uniform Transient Occupancy Tax. The Signorio Inn was randomly selected in 2024 for a compliance audit for its TOT payments from January 1st of 2021 to March 31st of 2024. HDL, the city's auditor, issued the audit findings on October 17th, 2024, finding the appellant owed $1,650.26 in TOT, Because approximately $11,000 in deposit forfeiture fees were charged to guests but were not taxed.
A copy of these audit findings is included in the report as attachment B. Due to Sunido's failure to collect and pay tax on deposit forfeiture fees, the audit found that Sunido owed an additional $330.05 in penalties. and $103.83 in interest pursuant to the city's penalties and interest sections at 420, 421, and 423. The audit findings made several findings, but the appellant only disputed the first and second finding. The first finding identified a discrepancy between the appellant's reported taxable rent and overall rental revenue and the appellant's accounting systems and or third-party revenue reports. The second finding identified deposit forfeiture fees that were omitted from taxation despite Qualifying as rent.
The appellant provided HDL additional information to address the discrepancies under Finding 1, but disputed and asserted his right to appeal Finding 2, arguing that deposit forfeiture fees are not rent and are therefore not taxable. On January 14th, 2025, HDL sent a revised audit findings incorporating the information the appellant provided to resolve the discrepancies under Finding 1, Reducing the amount of uncollected taxes to $1,450.56, $301 in penalties, and $325 in interest. A copy of the revised audit findings is included with the report as attachment D.
On January 29, 2025, the appellant emailed HDL to dispute Finding 2, arguing that deposit forfeiture fees are not taxable rent, requesting a hearing, and attaching a statement describing why the appellant believed the identified transactions were not taxable. The email and statement are in the report as attachments, E and F, respectively. A hearing was scheduled for February 27th of 2025, at which the appellant appeared in person, presented in support of himself for over two hours, and entered 11 multi-page exhibits, which are attached to the Administrative Report as Attachment H.
These exhibits overlap with the appeal hearing for the Casa Ojai Inn, which the appellant also operates. Please be aware that appellants' exhibits in Attachment 8, Exhibit Numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 include incomplete or incorrect quotes of the Ojai Municipal Code Sections 407, 410, 411, and 412, and or include amalgamations of law. On April 8th of 2025, the tax collector issued a determination upholding the revised TOT audit findings and $1,630.67 in tax and penalties, $549 of which the appellant agreed to pay for finding one regarding the discrepancy.
The tax collector waived all penalties and interest assessed for Finding 1, but only waived the interest assessed on the unpaid balance for Finding 2. Again, the tax collector's determination is included with the administrative report as attachment I. The appellant requested City Council review for the determination on April 23rd within the 15-day appeal window under Section 429, seeking to appeal both the tax collector determination and perceived procedural and due process issues leading up to and during the February hearing, and a hearing was thereafter scheduled for September 16, 2025, at the appellant's request. Copies of the appellant's appeal request and the due process complaints are included as attachments J and K.
Although Section 430 only requires five days notice, notice for the September 16, 2025 hearing was sent to the appellant 12 days in advance of this hearing, and it directed the appellant to submit any supporting materials for council consideration on September 10. However, the appellant did not submit any documents until the afternoon on September 16. Hours before the hearing was scheduled to begin, citing the inability to review the documents and seeking to adopt citywide hearing procedures, the City Council voted to continue the hearing.
After adopting hearing procedures on April 14th of 2026, the City scheduled this appeal hearing for today's date. The appellant's challenge to the tax collector's determination consists of three main arguments, each of which fundamentally misinterpret the City's Uniform Transient Occupancy Tax Code and complicates the audit process. First, the appellant argues that deposit forfeiture fees do not fall within the City's definition of rent.
Second, the appellant argues that the city has no authority to collect uncollected taxes from a hotel operator. And third, the appellant argues that the audit should have been based on transaction level records. I would like to note that the appellant previously argued against the hearing procedures and due process requirements leading up to and during the February 27, 2025 hearing and leading up to the September 20, 2025 hearing. However, the appellant does not raise this argument in the briefs and evidence submitted for today's hearing.
Appellant's first argument that deposit forfeiture fees do not qualify as rent ignores the definition of rent approved by voters pursuant to Measure C and relies on incorrect interpretations of the definitions set forth in the City's Uniform Transient Occupancy Tax Code. The term rent is defined in Section 7 to mean, in part, this consideration charged, whether or not received, for the occupancy of space in a hotel, inclusive of resort fees, cancellation fees, parking fees, and other fees tied to occupancy of a space in a hotel.
Cancellation fees are explicitly included in the definition of rent under Section 407, which are imposed when a transient cancels their reservation or does not show up, forfeiting their right to occupy a room at the hotel. Upon cancellation, any entitlement or right to occupy is revoked and the transient must pay a fee to the hotel operator. Similarly, when a transient makes a deposit and prepays for part or all of their future occupancy but does not follow through with a reservation, any right to occupancy is revoked and the deposit is forfeited to the hotel operator.
Cancellation fees and deposit forfeiture fees are both taxable rent because they are related to the right to occupy a room. Both are imposed when a right to occupancy is revoked and are therefore tied to occupancy and within the definition of rent. Therefore, the plain language of the OMC clearly contemplates deposit forfeiture fees as rent refuting the appellant's argument.
The appellant also argues that including deposit forfeiture fees as rent unlawfully expands the definition of occupancy. However, the definition of occupancy includes not only the actual use or possession of a room, but also the right to the use or possession of a room. Regardless of whether reserved rooms are later occupied, a forfeited deposit falls within the definition of rent and is subject to the TOT because a deposit grants an entitlement to occupy and is therefore tied to occupancy.
Appellant's second argument, that the city cannot collect taxes from hotel operators who fail to collect taxes, ignores the express responsibilities of operators under multiple TOT OMC sections, including section 412, which states that each operator shall collect the tax imposed by the provisions of this article to the same extent and at the same time as the rent is collected from every transient.
And section 425, which states that if any operator shall fail or refuse to collect the tax and to make within the time provided in this article any report and remittance of the tax or any portion thereof required by this article, the tax collector shall proceed in such a manner as he or she may deem best to obtain facts and information upon which to base his or her estimate of the tax due.
The OMC is clear that hotel operators must collect the tax from each transient and are subject to enforcement should they fail or refuse to do so. Furthermore, the OMC does not require the City to pursue payment from transients or prevent the City from pursuing the operator for taxes owed as provided in Section 411. Adopting the appellant's interpretation would ignore the plain meaning of the Ojai Municipal Code and would make the audit findings unenforceable, overlooking the City's duty to enforce its own laws.
Lastly, appellant's third argument is that the audit should have been based on transaction level records, otherwise known as folios. To be clear, the appellant is not arguing that he paid taxes on deposit forfeiture fees. Therefore, this argument is irrelevant, absent evidence that the audit overlooked the payment of TOT on these fees. Notwithstanding this statement, I invite the City Council to review the series of events detailed in the summary for finding one in the audit dated October 17, 2024, included with the agenda report as attachment B.
In the summary, HDL explains that it discovered a discrepancy between reported taxable rent and rental revenue in a trial balance the appellant provided for the audit. The summary goes on to say that, quote, the auditors gave the hotel ample opportunity to provide evidence to show the discrepancy was incorrect, but the hotel was unable to provide such evidence.
But after receiving the October 17, 2024 audit findings, the appellant did provide additional records which informed the revised audit findings dated January 14, 2025. The email included as attachment C details this exchange between the appellant and HDL. Based on this summary and the email exchange provided in Attachment C, the appellant was clearly afforded the opportunity to provide records to HDL to inform the audit, and HDL did request and was provided individual folios, which provide a detailed ledger of charges and payments during guest stays.
If the appellant remained unsatisfied with the audit findings, he had ample opportunity to provide the transaction-level records he now argues was required for the audit. For this reason and because the appellant did not raise this as an issue at the February 27, 2025 hearing, appellant's argument that the audit required transaction-level records or that he can now provide those records cannot stand.
Please be aware that Keri Calloway, Audit Manager with HDL, is available to answer any questions the City Council may have regarding the audit process and methodology. At this time, City staff recommends that the City Council independently review, consider, and analyze the administrative report, the information presented, oral and written testimony by all parties and their witnesses, and the record, and make a decision to uphold the tax collector's determination dated April 8, 2025, which held the TOT and penalties from the revised audit findings dated January 14, 2025, were properly assessed against the appellant.
I reserve the remainder of this time allotted to answer any questions from the Council or for Council to ask any questions to HDL with Carrie Calloway regarding the audit process or methodology. Thank you.
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I do have a question, and maybe this is the right time or the wrong time. So when we look at, I'm looking at, this is page 7 of the large packet, but this is the section 8-1-407 where the language which you read, inclusive of resort fees, cancellation fees, parking fees, and other fees tied to occupancy of the space in the hotel. I'm asking a comparative question, so if it's inappropriate, let me know. Do other hotels question this kind of charge on these sort of items, other hotels that you also in the area work with?
Does that make sense, what I'm asking?
Yes, it does. So we have not done another TOT hearing for any other hotels in the area.
I guess I'm asking if they pay them. That's what I'm sort of asking. In other words, if we're talking about like a cancellation fee, the way we're talking about right now, do other hotels pay those fees?
That might be a question for Brenda. Yeah. Yes,
those are paid through, those items are taxed.
Right, so other hotels are paying them is what I'm asking and you're saying yes.
Yes.
Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Thank you. That was clear. OK. We'll move on to the appellant presentation. Mr. Larner, if you'd like to come up. Thank you.
Hello. Thank you for allowing me this chance to speak. I'd like to start with a procedural objection that I'd like to read into the record. Dear Mayor and Council Members, before I proceed on the merits, I need to preserve a threshold procedural objection. I submitted written procedural materials challenging whether the tax collector determinations are properly before the Council at all.
I understand those materials were not provided to Council. and may not be considered because the City Attorney has characterized them as late submissions. I object to that exclusion. These materials are not mere late merits evidence. They are threshold objections concerning notice, finality, hearing access, due process, and whether the tax collector process complied with the OMC.
The core procedural problem is this. I first requested review of the CASA audit findings in December 2023, and then expressly confirmed my hearing request under OMC 8-1427. Yet the City did not promptly provide the tax collector hearing. Instead, City officials later delayed or conditioned hearing access by telling me I needed to file a City form. and remit the assessed amount on my audit findings before a hearing would be scheduled.
That requirement does not appear in the OMC Sections 8-1427 or 8-1428, which are the governing sections for hearings, tax collector hearings. Those sections provide that an operator may apply in writing for a hearing. That is all. That the tax collector shall give notice of the hearing and that the amount is not payable until after the tax collector hearing determination, unless an appeal is taken.
So, before Council reaches the tax merits, I ask Council to address whether this first-tier tax collector process was procedurally reliable enough to affirm a hearing right is not a meaningful right if access to the hearing is delayed or conditioned on non-OMC requirements. By OMC, I refer to the Ojai Municipal Code for Transient Occupancy Tax, especially payment of the very assessment being disputed.
I therefore request that Council either receive and consider my written procedural submissions before proceeding to the merits, continue the hearing long enough for Council to review them, or state on the record that Council is declining to consider them and identify the authority for doing so. I also object to being required to use my limited merits presentation time to orally reconstruct a written procedural motion that staff or council decline to provide to the decision maker, the council.
With that objection preserved, I ask for a ruling before I proceed.
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Question, are you speaking about the interaction with Mr. James Vega in 2019?
I am speaking of the pre-hearing motion that I submitted to Council via the City, Ms. Burgess and City Clerk. This is a multi-page, 40-plus points of procedural defects, due process violations, or due process issues, and fair notice concerns.
I would love to hear from my colleagues. I'm not seeing the due process problem and would like to proceed, but I'm willing to hear your thoughts.
I think we should hear from the attorney as to whether it's appropriate for us to receive those materials.
So, pursuant to your hearing policies, quasi-judicial hearing policies that were adopted in March or early April, The requirement is that if an appellant is going to submit written evidence as part of their appeal, that that needs to be submitted in advance. And so where notice of a hearing is provided, I believe it's at least 14 days in advance, then the written materials are generally required to be submitted at least 10 days in advance of the hearing.
In this case, we did allow a shortened time period to produce those because 10 days before the hearing fell on a Saturday. So, Mr. Lerner had inquired about this deadline in advance of that deadline, and we let him know that we would allow him until noon on Monday. which I believe was May 4th, to submit those written materials. And then we actually ended up, because there were some technical difficulties, I believe his submittals came in shortly thereafter.
And we did advise him that materials that were submitted after that deadline would not be presented to council for consideration. So, whenever he did submit additional documents after that deadline, I did inform him that, you know, we would not be forwarding those on to Council with the rest of his submissions, but that he would have an opportunity to raise these objections in the meeting, and so I think for purposes of You know, this objection, your procedures do not require you to rule on evidentiary objections. You can hear them and proceed with the hearing. You don't have to necessarily rule on those objections. But if you feel that you need additional information, you know, above and beyond the information that was submitted as part of the proceeding, you always have the opportunity to continue the hearing to a future date.
If I recall the last time when you were here when we were going to do this and it was brought to your attention and ours that you were turning in information past the deadline, so it's something that you were aware of. And so I don't understand why, if you knew the last time, why you're trying to put it in this time when you know that there's a time frame.
I'd be happy to explain. Please. So, first and foremost, the information that I'm submitting is above and beyond the hearing apparatus and the question of the taxpayer determination. What it is is related to the tax determination and the tax collector hearing, but it is an account of the procedural defects from the moment that I got my business license through the hearing process.
And that whole scenario, all of the different elements, like not having a top certificate, not getting a hearing when requested. I mean, I can read them to you formally so that you have them on the record. I prepared a statement like this subsequent to my tax collector hearing. After I received the determination, I wrote a brief and a complaint, and I addressed it to the Council.
I did not send it directly to the Council for the City's instruction. I sent it to the City, I sent it to the City Manager, the City Assistant Manager, the City Clerk, and I requested that it be submitted to the Council for reading. Later, I learned when I had some ex parte communications with council members that they had never received that at the beginning of my hearing.
Without any, I had no time to, I came into the hearing thinking that that will have already been processed, read, understood, and yet I came to the hearing to learn that it was never received. I submitted it to the council. That is a devastating procedural defect and a due process issue that needs to be addressed before we can entertain an evaluation of the merits of the tax collector hearing of which I was complaining the process, for which I was complaining the process. So it's a chicken and egg issue.
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So I'm curious how that information was different than some of, because you included in your documents, emails, some of your concerns. And I did actually read every page of those. And there were several emails that you were, between Mr. Vega, between different James, between different members of the team, that where you expressed Thank you all for joining us.
There were questions about the nature of the hearing, procedural guidelines. There was a new resolution that I had to process. I had questions about the resolution. I went back and forth with the City Attorney to iron out those questions, and then that alone took several days. Meanwhile, I'm trying to compose all of my materials and information so that I can make an organized casework presentation on the merits, and then once I had submitted those, I didn't want to I didn't want to use my time to work on my procedural defect, because I had already submitted that.
And I wanted to get my merits in, because if I didn't get my merits in, then I would be in a very bad situation here before you. So I barely was able to reach the deadline. And then once I did that, then I sought to work on my procedural defect motion. So it was just the natural and only You know, course of action that I had to provide these, you know, consider I had already sent the complaint for procedural defects. It was never heard. I don't know if you even after I complained about that, if you ever received it. Maybe you can tell me if you received that initial.
It would have been in April, May of 2025.
I'm having the feeling that we have enough information to proceed.
Yes, please. I have a procedural
question.
So he's about eight minutes into his presentation, and I'm just wondering if this is part of his 30 minutes, or if this is all kind of, you know, a prelude argument where we, I mean, I'm not sure exactly how long his argument on the merits is going to take.
I would like the full time and I would not want this to be subtracted from that.
So we did advise Mr. Larner that any procedural objections he would like to raise that he could raise as part of his 30-minute time period. I will say that in council's discretion, if you would like to provide him, I think we've spent roughly eight, not quite eight minutes talking about this. If you wish to provide him with some extra minutes, you can. You would need to offer the same thing to the OMLO team.
Since they've completed their initial presentation, I think we would, You know, just ask if they have any additional remarks before we move to public comment. But that's in the discretion of City Council.
Did you have a thought, Mr. Whitman? In other words, if we were to proceed now with the merits of the case to start it at 30 minutes and go forward?
Well,
I'm
thinking about the idea that our city attorney says that Mr. Larner was informed that the 30 minutes would be inclusive of procedural arguments. I just wanted to make sure that that wasn't going to become an issue. If that's what our rules are, then I think we should follow them.
If there's not a procedural objection that we want to dig into, then I would suggest that you go into the merits of the case, but I'm happy to hear from my colleagues if there is. Then I, oh please, go ahead.
I'm inclined to separate the due process issue from the merits, although I do understand that that was explained prior. But I think that due process is different than merit, and I think that it is reasonable to raise a due process issue. So for that reason, I would not have a problem and would be in favor of returning the seven minutes, understanding that I don't mean to overrule our city attorney. It just seems to me that they are two different things and I would like to afford.
As far as I can, that having been said, that is simply my sort of take on it. Seven and a half minutes is seven and a half minutes. It's not, and I certainly agree that we would have to accommodate opposing. I would
happily offer the seven and a half minutes and that we proceed. Any objections to that? Okay.
Okay, thank you.
Please proceed.
Okay, just to be clear.
Now your time is running.
Okay. Okay. Well, I understand and I object to that this forces me, you extended me the time and I appreciate that, but I have not had a chance to read a summary of my motion for pre-hearing threshold. Evaluation, and thus I haven't been able to put the core procedural defects in the record, which I will do so now really quickly. Delayed access to hearing, I'm sorry, delayed access to the tax collector hearing, combined tax collector hearing officer role, pre-hearing recommendation of liability, inadequate notice of adversarial format, no reason determination, premature enforcement and portal barriers, The Resolution 2026-9 does not retroactively cure the February 2025 tax collector hearing or the September 2025 appeal process. It is a step toward clearer procedures going forward, but any remanded hearing should be governed by Resolution 2026-9 and any necessary supplemental procedures provided far enough advance For the operator to meaningfully comply, including participant disclosures, burden of proof, exhibit rules, witness procedures, time limits, and any deviations from the resolution.
I do request that you address the threshold procedure objection before the hearing that you have declined. If you decide to proceed with the merits, I preserve the procedural objections and issue a written If council proceeds to the merits review, I ask that you preserve the procedural objections and issue a written decision explaining how each threshold objection was resolved. Hold open or supplement the record as necessary for material CPRA records and missing record evidence relevant to the consistency, fair notice, and audit methodology.
I also have a question based on your interactions before the hearing.
Again,
I didn't quite understand when witnesses would be allocated or called. I did not recall that in your report.
I believe the letter that we sent a couple of weeks ago did provide that witnesses could be called during your 30-minute.
Okay, so it's during my 30 minutes. All right, thank you. All right, so I'll proceed with the merits. I respectfully submit this forward to orient you, orient your evaluation of the briefs, analysis, and evidence filed in connection with my appeal. To the tax collectors' determinations for Casa Ojai and Sunido Inn, I am combining the two here for expediency. The pages that follow present detailed legal and evidentiary arguments. This forward summarizes the core issues so that Council may evaluate those agreements with a clear framework in mind.
Do I understand that the Council did receive my casework and has process read the casework? I do not come before you to deny that TOT is owed on room rent, nor to challenge the City's authority to conduct audits. I conceded a specific identified reporting error for Sunido, and I paid for it. What I contest is whether the methodology used by the tax collector to assess the disputed amounts reflected To assess the disputed amounts reflects the law as written, whether the audit findings evidence meets the standard that the law requires, and whether the enforcement process afforded the basic fairness that any administrative proceeding demands.
Dear Mayor and Council Members, Before I address the specific audit findings, I want to be clear about why I am here. This appeal is not about avoiding the roughly $13,000, $14,000. I have spent far more time, energy, and business attention to this matter that would make sense if this were merely about avoiding a payment. I am not here because I object to fulfilling my duties as a hotel operator. I understand that operator obligations under the City's Transit Occupancy Tax Coordinate, and I have always tried to comply with those obligations in good faith.
I am here because this has become a matter of principle, process, and the rule of law. The City is asking operators to comply strictly to its taut rule. While the City itself has not consistently followed, explained, or demonstrated command of those rules, the City has imposed harsh retroactive consequences based on interpretations that were not clearly stated in the ordinance, not published in guidelines, and not consistently communicated to operators.
That is deeply troubling. The Ojai Municipal Code imposes the tax for the privilege of occupancy. Rent is the measure used to convert that occupancy into a monetary tax base upon which tax can be computed, 15%. But rent cannot be interpreted so broadly that occupancy becomes meaningless. Nor should the City impose penalties on an operator for failing to follow an interpretive methodology that was not clearly set out in the Code and was not provided through clear, prospective guidance.
It's also deeply troubling to me to be asked to pay tax debt that the Code identifies as the debt of the transient. particularly where the tax was never collected from the train. And particularly because the city requires the operator's duty and entrusts in the operator interpretive, implicit interpretive role in determining how to apply the tax. And that's especially true when the city has not provided guideline per se.
The code distinguishes between tax owed by a transient and tax collected by an operator but not remitted. And I want to emphasize that. There is a distinction in the code that is very clear between tax owed by the transient and tax collected by the operator but not remitted. I do not believe the City can simply collapse that distinction after the fact and treat uncollected guest tax as operator debt. After all, I think it's Section 410 essentially says that the transient's debt can only be extinguished by payment to the operator. It does not give the City the right to extinguish the transient's debt by collecting it from the operator.
The only time it has that right is if the operator elected the tax and didn't remit it. And that's why Section 438 specifically says the tax is the debt of the transient, and collected tax is the debt of the operator. Collected unremitted tax is the debt of the operator. So, the question before Council is not merely whether it is administratively convenient to uphold the tax collector's determination. The question is whether the City will apply its own ordinance as written, follow a fair process, and require evidence before imposing tax penalties and interest. If the City believes its ordinance should tax broader categories of hotel-related charges, it can clarify that ordinance prospectively.
My predecessor, Jeff Wells from OHG, said exactly this to the Council in 2019, and yet no prospective guidelines, no change to the definition of occupancy. But operators should not be punished retroactively for the City's failure to provide clear rules, fair notice, and consistent methodology. What I'm asking for is not special treatment. I'm asking for the City's top procedures and interpretations to align with the Ordinance's due process, fair notice, and basic evidentiary fairness. Council now has a choice. It can uphold the tax collector's determination as a practical matter, despite these defects, or it can insist that the City follow its own rules before enforcing them against others.
I respectfully ask Council to choose the rule of law. Now I'll proceed to the foreword that I did submit to Council, although one day late, which summarizes my overall brief, because there's no way I could read through all of that brief, and I'm hoping and relying on the fact that you have read through it, or at least familiarized yourself with it. The ordinance taxes occupancy, not hotel revenue generally.
The Ojai Municipal Code imposes this taut on the privilege of occupancy. The use, possession, or right to use or possess a hotel room for dwelling, lodging, or sleeping. Not a freestanding tax base. This structure matters because it means not every charge in a hotel imposed on a guest is automatically taxable. Only those that constitute consideration for occupancy of space in a hotel for lodging purposes. That's the definition.
The City's audit methodology, as reflected in Auditor Communications, preceded in the opposite direction. It defined revenue categories from trial balance summaries and treated them as taxable rent. It assumed that gross revenue reported on trial balances should be taxed in its entirety, assuming that gross revenue is equal to rent revenue. It then took any deviance between those two balances and considered that amount taxable, regardless, without investigating the actual underlying data that resulted in that The correct approach under the OMC is to begin with occupancy, identify a specific transaction in which a transient paid for the right to use a room, and then determine whether the disputed charge was consideration for that occupancy.
The auditors applied informal tests not found in the ordinance. Anything room related, mandatory, cannot opt out, pass through charges, these were all identified by HDL auditors as their tests and their rules for determining whether a summary category would fall under tax. None of these appear in the OMC. All our charges are rent unless exempted presumptions.
When the operator, myself, directly asked what ordinance text supported those tests, no citation was provided. An assessment cannot stand on standards the ordinance does not contain. Measure C. Confirmed pre-existing methodology. Measure C, as the City stated earlier, does not expand the definition of the ordinance or the definition of rent. It clarifies and confirms the definition as the pre-existing tax methodology of the City.
Measure C amended the definition of rent to expressly include cancellation fees, resort fees, parking, and other fees tied to occupancy. The City now relies on this amended language To justify the disputed assessment. However, Ordinance 907, the ordinance that enacted Measure C, contains a dispositive preamble recital that constrains the reading. It says, whereas this ordinance clarifies the term rent and its definition consistent with the City's existing interpretation and method of assessment, and thereby confirms the existing applicable definition of rent. So in other words, the definition of rent didn't change.
They just added some clarifying details to it. So if an operator was doing his job, he could assume that the interpretive framework that he was using to determine whether something was taxable would be the same before and after Measure C, because according to this, it's the same meaning. And to continue and therefore confirms existing application of rent in a matter that is declaratory of existing law and the City's existing tax policy.
A declaratory confirmation amended does not change the law, it restates it. The City, therefore, cannot simultaneously argue that Measure C merely confirmed pre-existing methodology and use the amended language to assess charges that were not taxed under pre-existing methodology. Both cannot be true. And as I've provided to you in evidence, My predecessor, OHG, under Jeff Wells, did not tax for these items. We have folio data that I've provided to you demonstrating that cited charges or categories that were Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Numerous operators undergoing audits being assessed for these tax categories indicating that they believed that they were not taxable and that only after Measure C, after the audit, retroactively, were they being enforced, which is a due process issue. The pre-2019 and 2020 evidence is directly relevant here. Pre-Measure C hotel property management records show that pet fees, crib fees, cleaning fees, roll-away beds, and deposit forfeitures were not subject to TOT. That is evidence in your possession.
The prior operator, Jeff Wells, testified that he did not tax those categories because he did not interpret them as rent under the then-existing code, and his understanding was consistent with the City communications at the time, which I've provided to you, which focused the Measure C discussion on resort and amenity fees. Resort and amenity fees are not among the fees for which I have been assessed.
Not the ancillary categories now in dispute. In those categories, if those categories were not taxed before Measure C, they were not part of the existing methodology as stated in the ordinance and in Measure C ballot. Taxing them now using Measure C language is not confirmation, it's expansion. And if it is expansion, it must be evaluated as such, narrowly with ambiguity resolved against the taxing authority as deemed per law, and without retroactive penalties imposed on operators who acted consistently with prior practice.
Now, this raises, of course, my CRPA record request concerns, for which I requested from the City any evidence that they could provide of prior audit material. They denied one of my requests for such information on the basis that it was a privacy concern and qualified for a privacy exemption. However, nothing, I had asked for redacted information and no operator level information need be submitted, only evidence that such taxes were collected prior to Measure C.
I was refused. I modified my CRP requests. You have them all before you. There are also outstanding CRP requests for which the City claimed that it had responsive information pertaining to emails between the City, HDL, Council members, etc. And yet, although they acknowledged they had the information, they failed to provide it. Another due process issue. And a procedural issue, which is why proceeding with this hearing is probably unfounded, in my opinion, until those issues are addressed in full.
The audits lacked transaction-level evidence. Both audits were constructed from trial balance categories, year-to-date revenue summaries, and variance Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And two, TOT was not collected on that specific transaction. A trial balance category shows that revenue existed in a particular accounting bucket. It does not show that any individual charge was for, whether it constituted taxable rent, or whether TOT was or was not collected.
HDL's own initial audit request letter, which called for sample The final audit methodology departed from that framework. The auditor divided year-to-date category amount by 12 and distributed them evenly across months and used a plug figure where categories did not reconcile to the alleged understatement. The tax collector upheld these category-based findings without requiring the City to supply the missing transaction-level proof.
Council should not compound that error by confirming a determination that assumes what should have been proven. It's not the operator's job to prove that the audit was done correctly. It's the city's job to ensure that the audit is performed correctly in the first place. Deposit forfeitures and cancellation fees. Potential rent is not taxable rent. Potential rent is not taxable rent.
The tax collector's determination treats all forfeited deposits as taxable rent on the theory that paying a deposit secures the right to occupy a room, making the payment consideration for occupancy. This analysis fails to engage what actually happens at the moment of forfeiture, where a guest cancels before arrival, the room is released to inventory, and the operator retains the deposit, no occupancy has occurred, no enforceable right to occupancy survived the cancellation, and the retained amount is Is contract damages for the breach or non-performant? It is not consideration for the right to occupy. A deposit with the potential to be applied to future rent, as the tax collector's own determination phrases it, is not taxable rent.
Potential rent is not rent. It's not found as described in the OMC. There was a group folio that is a concrete illustration. I provided it. A film production company booked a room block, canceled before arrival. Rooms were released to inventory, and a nonrefundable deposit was retained for damages. The tax collector's broad rule that paying the deposit automatically creates a taxable event would not require top collection on the deposit, even if it subsequently refunded it, producing an absurd—oh, I'm sorry.
The tax collector's broad rule that paying a deposit automatically creates a taxable occupancy event would require tot collection on the deposit. Does the city require tot collection on deposits? I don't believe they do. They've never asserted such. The OMC doesn't state it. In fact, the OMC talks about Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That then is converted to a payment. So they go under the term of advanced deposits, the liability owed to the individual making the payment.
And then if they forfeit that, it gets placed into a revenue category that is non-occupancy. If they follow through and apply the deposit to rent, at that moment it becomes rent or occupancy and is taxable. The distinction that matters is this. Did the transient retain an enforceable right to occupy the room when the disputed amount was charged or retained? If yes, the charge may be taxable. If no, the right was revoked, canceled, never matured.
It's payment for damages, not rent. The OMC does not transfer uncollected transient debt to the operator. There is no section in the ordinance that provides for that or justifies it. A structural issue runs through both determinations that the City has never squarely resolved. The OMC imposes tot on the transient. The operator's duty is to collect that tax from the transient and remit what is collected. Only tax actually collected by an operator and not remitted becomes operator debt, according to Section 438.
Uncollected tax remains a debt of the transient. The City relies on 412 and 425 to hold the operator liable for allegedly uncollected amounts. Section 412 establishes a duty to collect. Section 425 is an assessment mechanism. Not a debt transfer mechanism. Neither provision read in context constitutes a clear transfer of the transient's tax debt to the operator. Reading 425 as debt transfer clause would render 438's careful distinction between transient debt tax and operator liability for collected but unremitted tax largely meaningless.
The duty to collect is not the same as liability for the tax if collection does not occur. If the City wishes to impose that liability, the ordinance must say so clearly. Under settled law, ambiguity is resolved against the taxing authority and in favor of the taxpayer. The City has not produced a clear textual basis for the debt transfer. It is seeking to accomplish, and the Council should not supply one by implication.
I passed out to you one of the slides that addresses this issue, and it's the closed loop slide. If the City should seek to collect tax from the operator, which the operator has never collected, it leaves the tax debt on the transient, and that loop is never closed. The many sections, several sections, make it clear that in order to close the loop, the tax must be collected. So either the city collects the tax, or either the operator remits collected tax, that has been, that extinguishes the debt from the transient, they collect the tax, they remit it to the city, that closes the loop. The other option is the transient never pays the tax to the operator. It is uncollected tax. It doesn't matter why it wasn't collected.
It's because it doesn't state, the ordinance doesn't address that, but it does address the fact that if, for whatever reason, it is uncollected, the city may collect it from the transient directly. That closes the loop. Those are the only two options that can be read harmoniously within the ordinance. Otherwise, you have a remaining, unextinguished debt by the transient.
Case law supports narrow ordinance-specific construction. The City has invoked BAT v. City of San Francisco to support a broad reading of top taxability. That reliance is misplaced. As the California Court of Appeal explained in Regarding Transient Occupancy Tax Cases, BAT's result That parking charges were taxable depended on San Francisco's broader definition of occupancy, which expressly covers the furnishings or the services and accommodations accompanying the use and possession of those rooms. That is a very broad definition of occupancy. It clearly contemplates a broader tax than Ojai's very narrow tax on a room for lodging.
OHAI's occupancy tax does not contain that language, and OHAI, or the City of OHAI, cannot borrow that language. They must be governed by the OMC. The same court stated the governing principle plainly. In every case involving the interpretation of statutes levying taxes, it is the established rule not to extend their provisions by implication beyond the clear import and language use.
In cases of doubt, they are construed most strongly against the government and in favor of the citizens. If the City wishes to tax services, furnishings, and accommodations as occupancy, as San Francisco does, it must broaden Ojai's occupancy definition to say so, to not import San Francisco's broader language through case law without enacting it. The City knew guidelines were needed and they didn't issue them. Before Measure C was adopted, Mr. Wells testified in November 2019 to the City Council that amending the definition of rent without correspondingly broadening occupancy would create a structural ambiguity and that operators needed clear written guidelines before new definitions were enforced. The city acknowledged the guidelines, that guidelines could address the gaps.
The city manager scheduled an operator meeting for March 2020 to discuss the definition, and he canceled it. No written guidance was ever issued. HDL confirmed in writing that it applied only the municipal code and that no city guidelines existed. Operators were left to interpret an amended ordinance. The city itself had been warned was ambiguous and no administrative guidance and no binding published standards. I'm gonna
1:07 – 1:1315 turns
have to ask you to stop now. Thank you very much. We've got it. Thank you. Okay We'll go to public comments. I only have one car. Oh,
yes, go ahead. We go back to public comment because we did extend. Mr. Larner's time Yes, seven and a half minutes. I just wanted to check with The AMLO team to see if if they need any additional or if they would like the additional seven and a half Minutes beyond what they will have for rebuttal
Yes, we'd like to take advantage of the additional seven and a half minutes. Okay,
please do.
So to quickly address, to quickly mention and address some of the due process issues that were raised, the appellant has been afforded abundant due process and procedural fairness leading up to and during the February 27th, 2025 hearing and the continued September appeal hearing and for tonight's appeal hearing. The city is required to provide actual notice of a violation, then provide adequate notice of a hearing if a hearing is requested, provide a reasonable opportunity to be heard, and provide the appellee a chance to present evidence and controvert that evidence presented against them, and be heard by an impartial decision maker.
The appellant received notice of the OMC violations when he received the audit findings in October 2024. Because the appellant quickly responded to HDL after receiving the findings, the City honored his appeal request that was received months later, well outside the 10-day appeal window under Section 427, and then issued written notice 15 days before the February 27, 2025 hearing, even though only 5 days notice is required under Section 428.
The appellant exercised his opportunity to be heard by an impartial decision-maker, being the tax collector, and again presented in defense of himself for over two hours and entered 11 different multi-page exhibits. When the appellant timely appealed the tax collector's April 8, 2025 tax determination, the City provided the appellant notice of the September 16, 2025 appeal hearing, again 12 days in advance.
in excess of the five days notice required under Section 430. And then in response to the Appellant's concerns regarding the lack of hearing procedures, the Council opted to continue the September hearing to today's date. And the Appellant was notified of tonight's hearing on April 22nd in excess of the 14 days notice required under the City's newly adopted hearing procedures.
And I do want to state that the appellant's reliance on a prior operator's actions not to tax specific fees was a business decision and the appellant cannot rely on the actions of a previous hotel operator.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And with that, I would recommend we open it up for public.
Yes, I have one card at the moment, which is Larry Steingold.
Good evening. When I first heard about this a couple of months ago and I got read, I said to myself, gee, taxa on a bed, a crib, a dog should be because without those being offered, that room's going to be empty. So that was pretty obvious to me. The law says on cancellation. It's pretty obvious. But if what Mr. Lardner has said Is 10% correct? Forget procedure and fairness, because fairness has nothing to do with the ambiguity of all this. Fairness has to do with the technical dates and times of applying and all that stuff.
But this is all about the ordinance. If some of what he said is true, this thing is so ambiguous, I'm surprised we're not here all the time. There's just too many Ifs, couldbes, maybes, it's not clear. And laws and ordinances and taxes should be very clear and very succinct and very pointed. Because people, we don't like paying taxes, but if I'm going to pay a tax, I want to pay a tax on something specific that I'm paying for, not on something that, it's up to their opinion. It's an opinion, it's this, it's that.
And that's where I think you have a, Thank you very much. You deal with it, not pay the money and we'll figure it out later. Have them pay the money, put the money on the shelf, straighten out the ordinance, clean it up, and just make it so that there are no more arguments where somebody has to put up a thousand-page document with arguments that some of them are probably wrong.
Some of them may be right. That's the question. Which ones are right? And those you have to act on, because that's your responsibility. I mean, we all want transparency. I know when I get my tax bill, it says bond, bond, bond, this, that, and everything else. We know where the money's going. Well, at least we know what it's paid for. We don't know where it's going. But this is something else.
So I would I don't know, put it on the shelf, work with it, figure out the new ordinance, tax him. He'll pay the items on which he should be paying, my guess is. But like you said, he's here on principle. Did he collect the tax? That's a procedure which he should have been doing. Because once you pay it, then you argue it. You don't not hold it back because now you're going to get penalized for not paying.
So, I think you need to work on this ordinance and clear it up really quickly. Thank you, sir. Anybody online?
Mayor, no raised hands on Zoom for our special meeting. The cards I received were for our next agenda,
our
regular meeting.
I should mention to the people who are waiting in the audience, this probably has another hour to go, just so you're aware. Okay, so we'll move on to the city. There's another public comment on this?
Okay.
1:13 – 1:2616 turns
Then come turn in a card and then we'll hear you. Oh, not at all. No, we want to hear. Or just come forward, sir. Do you have a public comment on this
issue?
Yes.
Sorry about that. That's okay. My first time. That's all right. My buddy, same thing. We didn't realize. No problem. Thank you for giving me a chance to comment. I just gotta say, sitting and listening to both arguments, I feel for the guy. It seems like, based on what I've heard, that he has a reasonable interpretation that the tax in regards to the cancellation policy, I think it was what it was called, is not rent, which, I mean, it makes sense. It's like, someone cancels, that's not the same as them actually renting the space, and so it's a reasonable interpretation.
And then having that interpretation, then finding out from the city later on, going, hey, like, actually, no, you owe this amount of taxes. It seems like you've got a case, and I don't know, from Joe Schmo on the street looking at this, I'm saying, hey, I don't get why we're kind of nickeling and diming this guy instead of just going, oh, well, we should have made this more clear, made it so that he understands that if this happens, he needs to collect. Because if he had collected the tax from these people and then refused to pay it, hey, I'm with you. You know what I mean? Like, that's one thing. But if he never collected it and then he's saying that there's a chance for the city to collect it from the person who canceled, And it's not on him to collect it from them retroactively.
Seems like it's the balls in the city's court on this one, that they should be the ones who are, you know, collecting the tax from the transient who did pay the tax, you know, so. That's my two cents. I feel for the guy. I mean, seems like a small business owner. You know what I mean? It's not the inn. You know, if it was the inn, I'd be like, hey, but different K. Sorry. I don't know if that's allowed. But anyways, that's my opinion on it. Thank you guys for your time.
I give the rest of my time to you guys. And
just tell us your name so we
understand. Oh, I'm Zach.
Zach. Okay.
Thank you.
Okay. Yes, please.
Sorry, I'll be very quick. With regard to collecting tax versus remitting tax, just for your information, when the state assesses sales tax, I know from my years as working for a retailer in California, If a customer buys something on credit and then fails to pay their bill, then you do not collect either the price of the item or the sales tax. And the state does not require you to remit sales tax for purchased items where the person basically stiffed you for the item. So there is a precedent with regard to the difference between assessing a tax and collecting it.
And to the extent that that's useful, I'm sure that your attorneys will be able to connect those dots or not. The other thing is, with regard to the audit, I heard some comments that the audit was I have a great deal of experience with audits, not surprisingly, and I can tell you that a good audit never starts with rival balances. What it does is it takes a sample of transactions. The size of the sample is determined by several things, one of which is the confidence level that the auditor wants to have to establish to make sure that the audit is reliable.
Thank you, sir.
Okay, so now it would be the city rebuttal. Please come up, but this is dragging on too long, hurry. That's okay. That's all right. Just tell us who you are.
My name is Griffin Trader.
Oh, I
know you. Hi. Thank you all for having me. During the presentation, two issues came to my mind as a potential problem with the city's conduct. The first would be that I heard from Mr. Larner here that there was a series of hotel operators in the area similarly assessed as having committed similar infractions or not paying the taxes that they were due. These audits took place at a similar time, at which point there was retroactive penalties imposed upon them for their erroneous interpretation of the tax code as it was written prior to Measure C. And as far as I can tell, if numerous hotel operators were making this interpretation over a substantial period of time, interpreting it in the way that Mr. Larner did, The City reasonably should have known that that was their interpretation and their lack of action on it prior to Measure C either was a tacit agreement with that interpretation or so blind as so as to disqualify any sort of retroactive penalties.
Given that the city later amended in Measure C the ordinance, specifically the language around rent, the natural question that was raised for me was, was that a clarification in any real means, or was it a substantial expansion of tax base? Which seems to be Mr. Larner's allegation, which has some genuine merit in my estimation. And as a clarification could be applied retroactively, a substantive change could not, and seeming as there was a pattern of reasonable interpretation that was not in line with the city's clarification, I feel that there's a genuine question raised there. The other point that was the most salient, at least in my interpretation of the argument, was the occupancy-rent distinction.
I'll amend their language regarding the definition of rent. However, his argument was that the taxable event is occupancy and that rent is the consideration for occupancy. And so not every fee that's associated with a guest relationship with a hotel automatically becomes that occupancy consideration. And the question that I have yet to see answered is, what is the limiting principle on what factors into that?
You know, you have pet fees, you have cleaning fees, you have cancellation fees, you have Wi-Fi, you have food packages, you have various other amenities, all of which are involved in a guest relationship with a hotel, but certainly not all of which are being taxable here. So there's an argument for cancellation fees, but not for certain equipment rentals and, you know, Wi-Fi and food packages, and where is the limiting principle? And if there is none, then where does the city suggest they get their authority from defining these other things as?
Thank you. Anybody else? Okay. We'll have the city rebuttal, please. So 10 minutes on the clock. Thank you.
So, pursuant to the hearing procedures, Council does not have the authority to decide whether a City Ordinance or Resolution is legal, unenforceable, or unconstitutional. Council decision is limited under Section 431 to whether the determination of the tax collector was correct, and if not, what tax, interest, or penalties, if any, are due to the City from the appellant.
The record demonstrates that Cameron Larner, owner and operator of the Sunido Inn, failed to collect TOT on qualifying rent for the period between January 1st, 2021 and March 31st, 2024, and failed to remit the same amount to the City. Therefore, the City should uphold the tax collector's determination dated April 8th, 2025. Finding $1,630.67 in tax and penalties as properly assessed against the appellant.
Deposit forfeiture fees are taxable rent under the OMC. The City's definition of rent under Section 407 clearly covers deposit forfeiture fees. The appellant's interpretation of rent ignores the inclusion of cancellation fees in the definition. A cancellation fee is imposed when a transient cancels their reservation or does not show up, forfeiting their right to occupy a room at the hotel. Similarly, when a transient makes a deposit and prepays for part or all of a room or rooms but does not follow through with the reservation, any potential right to occupancy is revoked and the deposit is forfeited to the hotel operator.
In this way, cancellation fees and deposit forfeiture fees are tied to occupancy and are taxable rent. The appellant also has not provided any evidence that a guest has not paid for their stay at the hotel, nor has the appellant presented any evidence that other hotels have had the same interpretation of the OMC or have specifically excluded deposit forfeiture fees from being taxed.
The OMC clearly requires hotel operators to collect a 15% tax on all rent charged to transient guests, to hold the collected taxes in trust for the City, and to report and remit these taxes to the City on a quarterly basis. The OMC does not exempt an operator from its duty, nor does it prevent the City from collecting taxes owed from the operator. Here, the appellant, as the hotel operator, should have collected taxes on deposit forfeiture fees from transients and is not excused from paying the TOT because of this failure.
The City is not required to pursue transients for unpaid tax, nor is the City prohibited from going after operators for uncollected taxes. While the City may go after a transient directly under Section 411, it is not required to do so, and it is empowered to go after the operator that has failed to collect TOT under Section 425. Adopting the impellate's interpretation would ignore the plain meaning of the OMC, would make the audit findings unenforceable, overlooking the city's duty to enforce its own laws, and it would create a loophole that hotels would simply not have any responsibility to remit TOT by not collecting the TOT from transients, making the city's TOT optional for hotels.
Lastly, the audit did not need to be based entirely on transaction-level records. As noted in the summary for finding one in the October 17, 2024 audit report, the appellant had ample opportunity to object to the audit methodology used and provide the transaction-level records he now argues are required for the audit. The appellant is not arguing that he paid TOT on deposit forfeiture fees and has not provided evidence that the audit should have found that he paid TOT on these fees. The appellant's argument that the audit required transaction level records or that he can now provide those records cannot stand.
At this time, City staff requests the City Council make a determination after independent review, consideration, and analysis of the Administrative Report, the information presented, oral and written testimony by all parties and their witnesses, and the record, to uphold the tax collector's determination dated April 8, 2025, which held that the TOT and penalties from the revised audit findings dated January 14, 2025, were properly assessed against the appellant. Thank you.
1:26 – 1:416 turns
And the appellate rebuttal, please. Thank you.
The audits of several operators, which I have in my possession, some of which were delivered to me by the City in violation of privacy rights constructs. I myself raised these issues and submitted a request that the City look into why these violations were made. And that request was never, I never received a response to that request. But specifically, the city indicated that no other operator had mischaracter, or had uncollected tax on cancellation fees, but one of those audit findings reports for another operator, which I will not mention, but you have in evidence, was for cancellation fee.
With respect to cancellation fees, Sunido itself was not audited or assessed for cancellation fees, though I do grant that a deposit forfeiture has similarities with a cancellation fee. That said, neither deposit forfeiture nor cancellation fee is defined in the OMC. So to determine what the nature of the cancellation fee, whether it has a nexus towards or is Actually, consideration for occupancy, one would have to investigate the nature of the actual fee, the reservation, why that fee was assessed. I can tell you that cancellation fees come in different flavors. You've got a cancellation fee Basically, for a no-show, and in that case, the hotel reserves the room, holds the room, the guest doesn't show, and then there's a fee, but the room was held, so there was a right to occupancy that was never forfeited.
However, other cancellation fees, like deposit forfeitures, the guest, or the guest, not the guest, but the payer of the fee, or of the deposit, canceled their right or their reservation before exercising their right for occupancy. When I say exercising their right, that's when they obtain the codified right under the ordinance. So they have the right to use or possession of the room. If a cancellation occurs, that right is revoked. They have no right to that, and thus at the point that the taxable moment is when the fee is exchanged for liquidated damages. It is not exchanged for occupancy.
Okay. All right, so the city asserted that the record did not reflect, I'm sorry, the city asserted that the record showed that Sunido owed tax based on the audit findings. That was not shown by the audit findings. And as evidence of that, I'll just go through the audit findings themselves for Sunido. And you have a copy of this. You might want to bring that up. But first and foremost, I'll point out that the audit findings that were sent to both CASA and SUNIDO were categorized as preliminary audit findings.
And to my knowledge, those audit findings were never finalized. I've never received a notice that the audit findings were finalized in their form as sent to me. Yes, we had a tax collector hearing. Yes, there was a determination, but the findings were never advanced from preliminary to final. In the audit findings for Sunido, I will not address finding one because that was an area where I agreed, admitted that I had collected tax and failed to submit it. So as soon as I discovered the error, I corrected the error.
Under the summary, it says auditors found discrepancy between the hotel's reported tax filings and the rental revenue reported in its accounting system. So there is evidence that the auditor is taking reported tax filings, so the tax that I remitted, and they're comparing it to rental revenue reported in its accounting systems, where our accounting systems don't report rental revenue like that. They report gross revenue, and then they categorize that. Well, the auditor included all gross revenue in their comparison. And so they had determined what gross revenue was, and then they backed into the fact that the tax paid was less than the tax would have been had we collected 15% on the full gross. So their presumption was that everything we collected is taxable.
For example, he says the hotel filed X number of dollars in rent for the calendar year with no exemptions. However, the hotel reported a sum greater than that in gross revenue from its trial balance, creating a discrepancy. So that discrepancy I would say that's the first mistake because that doesn't indicate that. It indicates that some of the charges were not taxable.
But they didn't seek to prove through folio evidence that it was otherwise. Auditors gave ample opportunity, but where's the evidence of that? I don't recall ever having ample opportunity after these. Before this audit was filed, I received the audit findings, and then we started a dialogue. There was not a lot of dialogue. before I sent all my information that was requested. Trial balances, summaries, sample folios were sent.
So they had the information, they had the opportunity to get the information that they need. They never sought it. And the record is clear on that because I've provided emails that demonstrate those dialogues. The hotel, okay. If you look at what they did is they calculated that gap and then they calculated it for the year and then they took the sum of that gap and then they distributed it evenly across the entire year. So they basically said, oh, well, you have a difference between what we expect you to pay and what you actually paid. So we're just going to take that difference and we're going to throw it into a spreadsheet and divide it by 12 and assess it across every month, which is ridiculous.
The hotel omitted, this is what they say, from taxation the below transient guest charges deposit forfeited. It says these charges fall under the category of untaxed guest charges because they are clearly considered rent by definition. Stating something is something by definition is not an argument or proof of anything. They just state an assert that it's under the Municipal Code, but they never quote the Municipal Code or the definition of rent. They paraphrase, they say rent is defined as all charges on a transient guest for the rent of the room for lodging purposes. Okay, that's true for lodging purposes.
Yet, if that's the case, why are they seeking to collect rent outside that box? Then they go on, rent is taxable unless exempted. Here's the part I want to focus on. Since the business of the hotel is to provide short-term lodging and transient guests engage in business with the hotel for that purpose, all charges imposed by the hotel are considered rent. All charges. Where is that in the OMC? It's not.
That's their guiding rule. That's their definition. I'll read it again. Since the business of the hotel is to provide short-term lodging and transient guests engage in business with the hotel for that purpose, all charges imposed by the hotel are considered rent, with notable exceptions approved by the tax administrator. Notable exceptions? What exceptions? I've never seen an exception.
Is this a published exception? Also, just reading that on its face, the emails that we have back and forth, of which I've submitted to you evidence, talk about other charges that are not taxable, like food and beverages are asserted by the auditor to be not taxable, Wi-Fi, bike rentals, So if that's the case, why is the auditor asserting that all charges are taxable, while at the same time asserting that some are not? It's very confusing. There needs to be published guidelines. There needs to be a list. The city has to sit down and collaborate with operators to figure this out. It's ridiculous. Thank you, sir. I appreciate
it. All right. Council questions to either the appellate or the city. It's a lot to take in. If there's no questions, we can go directly, we can close the public hearing and go to discussion deliberation. Yeah, go.
Yes, I actually have a question for Carrie about, so there were some questions that were raised about the auditing process, and I was just wondering if you could speak to that for us, please.
Yes, so our process is to review everything. We don't ask them to provide 36 months of records. We ask for samples, sample folios, and then we ask for profit and loss statement, income tax returns. The income tax returns are normally done by their CPA, somebody outside of the hotel. So, we look at those and compare the revenue that's on those to the revenue that's reported to the city.
Now, keep in mind, when we look at that revenue, there are different types of revenue. And normally, on a normal profit and loss statement, it's going to have room revenue, and then down below it may have miscellaneous revenue. And that's where you're going to see the things like the PEP fees and the cancellation fees and the forfeited depositors and things like that.
Also, you're going to see things that aren't TOT taxable, like if there were food and beverages and things like that. So there are items on there that we do consider not TOT taxable. We just consider them taxable for the room. Again, anything that the operator can't opt out of. And I would like to say that, you know, when he says that we took the totals and divided it out, we did. And he had the opportunity to provide additional documents to show us what those monthly amounts were. But he never got past the point of, you know, disputing just the rent and the occupancy in general and whether the forfeited depositors are actually taxable or not.
That was his, you know, dispute and rebuttal to the audit. So we never even got to the point where he said he wanted to provide additional information to break down the calculations. Now, I do 100% believe that the total for that year is correct. And again, we did take that and divide it over 12 months because we didn't have anything else to go off of. So yes, and this is the same audit method that we use for every one of our jurisdictions that we Audit for there in California. So this is not something that's unusual or anything like that, but we do go down to the folios. We do review folios and things like that.
Thank you.
Any other questions? Okay, we can close the public hearing and move to council discussion deliberation. There is a few, I'm looking at the code right now, and it's what's been said, but it says, rent shall be the consideration charged, whether or not received, I'm just looking at our municipal code, for the occupancy of space in a hotel, inclusive of resort fees, cancellation fees, parking fees, and other fees tied to the occupancy of the space in the hotel.
It's what we have said here several times. And then when I also look at the TOT portal, where a hotel would pay their tax, I see very similar language. And then there's just something else. You have this in your packet as well. I'm looking at... This would be... In the large packet, it's page 85. And it looks like it's email exchanges dating back to December 2nd, 2019.
There's first an email that we're seeing from Lisa Carter, Ojai Office Concierge, with a question. I have a question about TOT tax and can't seem to find the info I need online. I want to know if TOT tax should be charged on no-show revenue that are charged to a guest for not showing up for their guaranteed reservation and then should be charged on roll-away beds, the equipment rented that they are now charged for the extra bed. And the answer from David, City of Ojai, number one, cancellation, early-late check-in fees.
As they pertain to occupancy in the room, are TOT taxable? This is before Measure C. Extra bed in the room is not TOT taxable. It's similar to room service and is not the standard charge. Now, this is not just anything, just to say the conversation seemed to have been happening even before Measure C, and there's a lot to look into, and I'm not saying this is definitive, but to say it should not have been out of the blue that that conversation would have been taking place.
1:41 – 1:5131 turns
Could I just note something for the
record?
That particular email, if you look at the domain,
it
is to happyfox.com, which was raised during the first hearing with the tax collector as potentially not a legitimate email.
Sorry, what does that mean? Tell me what that means,
please. I think the concern is that that particular email does not clearly seem to be sent from HDL, that it was sent from a different email domain. So I think the point is that it's unclear as to the origins.
Oh, thanks. Okay.
Yes, it says HDL Professional Services at happyfox.com, which would not be their domain name.
Okay, no, that makes perfect sense, so I'm curious about it. Is it some piece of evidence to say this was mistaken information that was sent to the applicant? Help me understand, how are we supposed to read this, if at all? I guess I'm...
I'll
come to ask you in a second.
So just because it does not appear to come from HDL,
this
would not be an HDL opinion.
Okay, fair enough. Thank you. Does that end? Would you say the same thing? Okay.
Whether it has an HDL domain or not is not the important aspect. It has an indication in the email that it is from HDL. You have an interaction between an operator and someone in the City of Ojai that subsequently was used in her audit with Mei Jing, an HDL employee, to modify her tax findings result. So what I would ask is, I would ask Carrie, if she has any knowledge, can she deny or affirm that HDL ever used a service that might be HappyFox for their HDL email communications? I would also ask her to deny or affirm whether... Just be succinct, please, sir.
I understand where you're coming
from. Whether the caravan outpost audit findings initially found extra beds, and then as a consequence of this email, those extra beds were not assessed on their final audit findings report.
I didn't understand. It sounded like two questions at once.
Just to clarify, so we don't know who it came from, but we know that the city answered it? Okay, so it could come from anybody, but the city answered the question. So it's kind of irrelevant who it came from, as long as the question was posed and the city, a legitimate response came from the city.
The city did not answer, so it looks like, I looked up happyfox.com, and it looks like it's like an AI email assistant, like an aggregate that helps people answer emails. So this didn't come from the city, this came from the HDL representative who was auditing the city on behalf, so they were sending it as the city's processing center.
Okay. That's what
it looks like.
And for me, all I was, I noted it to ask the question, well, the conversations were, seemed to be going on before Measure C, but even if we were to pause that, I am seeing on the website where, as I said, the portal going in where hotels would pay their TOT, the language is the same post-Measure C, I guess, so I guess there's some dispute with the applicant to say the language on the portal is not correct.
Fair enough. I know, I'm sure you were going to object to a lot, but we're going to have to hold on to you. I'm sorry, you'll have to hold until we ask you a direct question. Thank you. Yes?
Yeah, I'm just going to say that I understand the city's position, but I do believe, honestly and truly, that there is a lot of ambiguity. And I did look up whether or not, you know, the tax approach is that it is up to the tax levier to be extremely clear Thank you very much. Do I believe that this was unclear enough? And I do find it so. I also, I mean, I appreciate the narrow versus broader definition. And I think it appears to me that the audit used a very broad definition, and that leads to ambiguity.
So that's how I'm looking at this. I don't look as though the city itself has made any errors, but I also don't find it nearly as clear-cut as I could. Like, these things are listed. This is what you charge the TOT on. This is what you don't charge the TOT on. And, you know, so then it comes down to, do I believe that there was You know, honest intentions here and goodwill, and I do.
I believe no one would go through this amount of time and effort for a matter of $12,000 for hotelers. And I want it to be very clear. I want it to be very clear. I want a list of the things that you would charge people for and whether or not they are TOT. I think that's the least that we can provide to our local businesses, our local businesses. So, not that I think that there's anything that was done incorrectly, but I do believe there was a wide swath of ambiguity here and honest and true mistakes. And it is a matter of interpretation if it's not clear. And I'm not willing to say that, you know, that one interpretation here was incorrect because I don't find it to be clearly incorrect. I find it to be possible and plausible. And so for that reason, I would like to figure out a way to solve this, whether or not it's coming up with going over the code so that it's very, very clear.
And we've had other people, I think the Lavender Inn sent a comment saying they were confused too, but it's not worth their while, so they're just going to pay it, which is normally what people would do. So that's where I stand, and I do feel like the city has an obligation to narrowly define Thank you all for being here. Well, you get my drift. That is where I fall down on this question.
There's one other piece that I'm looking at the code again. It's the same code. It's Section 8, 1-411, payment by transients. And it says the last line, if for any reason the tax due is not paid to the operator of the hotel, the tax collector may require the transient to pay such direct tax directly to the tax collector.
So that would lead more ambiguity, and so how does the city determine de facto that we're not going to go one way, we're going to go to the other? And it's those kinds of determinations that the city isn't even doing. Our vendor is doing that for us. But
on our behalf.
Oh, certainly on our behalf. You know, no doubt about it. And we've hired them, and this is what we hired them to do. But it's not the city doing it. And that's, I think, also different. Any thoughts?
Well, I'm just curious. So I understand, you know, everything he said. I totally get it. But it doesn't seem crystal clear. We have the Lavender Inn that had the same issues. But how many hotels are we actually dealing with? Thank you all for joining us.
1:51 – 1:5610 turns
I believe it's 11.
So out of the 11, it's just his two and Lavender Inn that have questioned the taxes?
I could jump in here. No, we have had other taxes in the questions in the past from other hoteliers and other disputes.
So a question, if a hotelier were to call the City of Ojai and say, can you tell me exactly what is taxed and what's not taxed, what's the website link they would look at?
Well, we generally try to not send them off to a website. We try to sit down and explain it to them. That's always our first approach. Our opinion is a bit different than some that you've heard today. We feel that the TOT language is very straightforward. Essentially, if there's a fee charged in association with the use of a room, it is taxable. The language that the voters approved is very simple and straightforward, and we don't have a difficult time explaining that. So, yes, if there is a cancellation fee, that was in exchange for a room that was to be rented, and it is the obligation of the hotelier. It is a fiduciary responsibility.
They are not paying the tax. They are not paying the tax. They are passing along the tax they collect from the transient, the person who intends to rent the room. It's a pass-through, so it's their responsibility to provide that to the City, and the voters approved Measure C because they outlined Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for joining
us. On some of those things, you could say, oh, they're attached to the occupancy of the room. The cancellation fee in the measure that's approved does put, it seems to me, it puts it in the category of saying, is the occupant getting something? Not explicitly, but implicitly they are, they're getting the right to go there. I think that's the argument, which, again, that's not interpretation, that's just right out of the measure.
So in that sense, It seems like there is an argument there to say if the dispute is something like, oh, there was a deposit that was let go of, but there was revenue taken in, and the argument is that's not a cancellation fee, that's a hard one for me to make a distinction of personally. But I'm, with the spirit of what you're saying, Ms. Rule, I agree with 100 percent. I'm just also trying to look at some of the things that do seem not ambiguous, like a cancellation fee being in the
Yeah, and I think there are things that are not ambiguous, but that doesn't discount the things that are ambiguous. Like, I think you could make the argument about cancellation for sure, and if there was, if you were to split hairs on it, then be very clear how you're splitting those hairs and why you're splitting those hairs. I agree with you, it says cancellation fees, so anything that shows up as a cancellation fee, you know, the language is very clear there. So I wouldn't particularly agree with that argument. But I, you know, like I said, it doesn't to me resolve the issue of The ambiguity and the responsibility of the city to be very clear. What can appear on this bill? And of those things that can appear on that bill, which ones are TOT attached to?
And the Measure C language, you know, it states a couple of different things, but it doesn't really, there's no clarifying language there. There's sort of broad categories that, and then you have to interpret what falls into these broad categories. So that's my, and I feel like we have an obligation to be very clear. We have an obligation to our constituents and our citizens.
And I don't in any way disagree about a TOT generally, or in any way make an argument that we shouldn't have a TOT and what it does to benefit for us. That's not, you know, ever a question here for me. I
understand. This might be a question for Ms. Cho or maybe Mr. Harvey, but are you in the position that you would request further clarification about TOT charges, or are things fairly clear from your perspective?
Ms. Cho, do you want to go first? She's gathering
my thoughts. No, it's okay. I know I put you on the spot.
1:56 – 2:046 turns
I believe that there are items that we mentioned that are clear, that are laid out, like the parking fees, cancellation fees. I would think that any items that are not optional, for example, like a cleaning fee, would be subject to be TOT taxable in that area.
And if I may, one thing I do want to just remind the Council of is tonight's question is not whether the ordinance could be written more clearly or include. The question is because the scope of the appeal is not The validity of the ordinance, it's whether the tax collector applied the ordinance correctly, and I understand that each of you may have, based on the evidence in the record, you may formulate your own opinions about whether that was or was not the case, but I do want to just remind the Council that the scope of the hearing is whether the tax collector correctly applied the ordinance.
So I will just say, just to be really clear, I do not believe that the tax collector did. I believe that there was a large amount of interpretation there, and I probably, not being as deeply invested in all of this, might very well have interpreted it differently. I feel like there was a lot of interpretation, and I do not feel comfortable making the evaluation that the tax collector interpreted this correctly with language. So I appreciate your distinction.
And I appreciate the opportunity to clarify that within the constraints of what you just
gave us. Absolutely. I appreciate that. Anything, Mr. Whitman?
Yeah. My view is that, you know, an event happens where the where the inn or hotel collects an amount of money from a transient for the right to occupy the room. And that, to me, establishes the right to occupation. And to me, to a certain degree, you know, calling it a cancellation fee is You know, semantical in terms of, okay, you know, I'm charged the full amount, but now I'm not coming, so I'm going to get all but a certain amount back.
That's still like part of this, you know, transaction that's taking place between somebody who wants to rent a room. And so my other view is that We have experts here and remotely who we rely upon to look at and interpret this correctly. And what I haven't heard from any of our experts is that there's a hole in the way that we've defined how we tax. Can You know, to the point made by our City Attorney, if the issue is perhaps because it has been, you know, interpreted ambiguously, we should make further clarification, I think that's a different question.
And I would fully support if there needs to be some Thank you very much. Thank you. I also find it semantical to a certain degree, the idea that because you didn't collect it, then it's not a tax. But if the event happened and the tax should have been collected, then I think it is appropriate to tax the person who was supposed to collect the tax. So that's kind of where I am on what we've heard tonight. Yeah.
Yeah. So I I think the I think that the That HDL has a history of working with different jurisdictions of going through this process in the way that they did, it seems to me like we, that other hotels have not had issues paying these fees or understanding, I know that there have been some questions, but that there's a template that we followed. And the cancellation fees are mentioned right there in the code.
I think what I get stuck on with anything related to this is that this is a measure that came from the voters, and so the language was something that was approved by the voters, and so I'm more in favor of going, following the advice of our attorneys, of our outside counsel, Auditors who are here to protect what the voters voted on. And I think that could things be cleaned up? Yes, we're not talking about that right now.
If there's also a slippery slope that you mentioned, Ms. Ballot, that the hotels that have paid these fees, that have understood them and that that if we go backwards and we don't collect from this, then what does that mean for other hotels that have been following the rules? And so, you know, you hear my hesitation because I'm all about small businesses and I'm all about making Thank you.
I have a hard time making an exception here when we're not making an exception for other hotels. And so that's where I'm leaning. You know, HDL has a process that they go through. There are certain aspects of our code that are very clear. about what's included in terms of fees. So, yes, that's where I'm leaning.
2:04 – 2:1045 turns
I'm leaning the same way, and if that is the case, it seems to me, then we would affirm the findings, correct? That would be the motion?
It
would
be a motion to uphold the tax collector's hearing determination that the audit findings concerning the transient occupancy tax and penalties should be assessed against the appellant. And I think, I did have one question, and this, I don't know if this is, I'm not sure who this is for. It might be for the finance director. Was the, does the 1630-67, it includes the amounts that have already been paid?
Any, was the 549-96 already collected from finding one? And if you don't know the answer to that, my only point in clarification is just that if a portion of the 1630 has already been collected, while we would be upholding the original assessment, I just want to make a note that we wouldn't be recollecting something that's already been collected.
I'm reading the 1630-67 as the final amount. Is that what you're saying?
So when you look
at
under the background section
on
paragraph M,
as
in, I don't, I never know.
Oh, just the bottom page
number? On page seven.
Okay.
It states that 1630-67, that that was the tax collector's determination and that 549-96.
The appellant
agreed to pay. And so I just, as we're While we would be upholding the assessment, which is for the full amount, I would just want to make sure Council understands, I don't know if that full amount is still owed.
I have a question. Would any of my colleagues be in support of waiving the penalties and the interest on the amount? Yes. Because I think that would be a good balance.
I agree 100%. And we have done that before. And
what would that amount be if the penalties were waived?
Penalties and interest.
I think it would be the $1630,000 plus the $549,000 which we're not sure that has been paid. The $549,000 is part of the $1630,000. So the penalties are $330,000, interest is $10383,000. So it would be
a savings of $434,000.
Are you looking at?
I'm looking at page number 27. OK, thank you.
And I guess that's a question for clarification. Does the 1630 include penalties and interest or? Yes, it does.
OK. I think that's a good compromise to fight if we could find that number.
So so I think we could make the motion and we can we can determine the exact amount. But the motion would be a motion to uphold the tax collectors April 8th. Hearing determination that the audit findings concerning the transient occupancy tax for the period of January 1, 2021 to March 31, 2024 should be assessed against the appellant, less penalties and interest.
Okay,
that's the motion. Yeah, I have a request. Is it possible to split those into two different motions because I'm in favor of one and not the other? And if I vote no, then I'm, I mean, I'm, if it carries, it carries, but we often split motions when, you know, half of it is we support and the other half we don't support.
Are you saying you don't want to uphold their findings, but you want to remove the
tax penalty? That is correct. That is correct. Because essentially
you're saying you don't want to, you want to vote no on upholding the findings.
Right, and you know, exactly. So you can just put a no on
that.
Okay, we did used to split them and allow people to vote so that it wasn't, I mean, then it becomes, oh, well you voted no on that. Oh, I see what you're saying. No, I didn't really vote no on it. I really had no choice.
I understand.
Yeah, I mean, in the end, we used to do that. Sousa was council member for Encina, was famous for doing that, and remains famous. So if there
were two motions, where upholding the findings would be one motion, and the second motion would be to reduce the penalties and the interest.
That is correct. So the findings from the tax collector included the penalties and interest. Okay, so
this is a quasi-judicial, so I...
It's just saying, you're saying you're just second about no, which is okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's fine. This is a different kind of situation, so yes, I don't want to make it more difficult. And if you can't separate it, that's absolutely fine. Okay,
I think we have the motion, that's clarified. Ready for roll call, Mayor? And what did, there wasn't a second, I think an official second. I'll second. Thank you, okay, yes.
Roll-call vote Passed 4–1 motion, that's clarified. Ready for roll call,
Show transcript
2:10 – 2:2015 turns
Motion passes.
All right, we need to do a little process check-in here, a procedural check-in. So we spent two hours and ten minutes on the first item. I'm assuming the second item is very, very similar, but obviously we can't just run through that. But we have a room full of people for two very important items as well. So, and we have paid people here for the second item, but this could literally take two more hours.
So, just maybe you could explain to the audience.
So, what's happened? Yeah, no, the what? We're all having a what? The special hearing had two items from the two hotels. We just finished one. So if we were to go to the second hotel, you would see a similar presentation, although we had mentioned if there's identical language, we need not repeat that language that's here. But we also have a room full of people that I also want to take care of.
So we, what, procedurally,
how would
that work? So, you have a few options. One option is we could continue the rest of the TOT discussion to a later meeting. We could continue the TOT discussion until conclusion of the City Council's regular business. That, of course, means that the appellant and our OMLO team would need to stick around. We could also delay beginning the regular meeting until conclusion of this. I do think that with respect to the first hearing, the first 10 minutes or so were more procedural, and those would not need to be repeated.
We would need to repeat the ex parte disclosures. I think we would also, I think we would have to inquire with Mr. Larner whether he has the same procedural objections that he raised on the first hearing and whether those can be, you know, accepted for the record on the second hearing or whether he will have, you know, additional Procedural objections to make on the second hearing and then I think council would have to decide Whether you wish to extend the time for his presentation as you did in the first hearing So my only point with that is there may be some things you could do to Reduce the period of consideration on the first one because we won't have you at the very least you won't have my procedural discussion up front
But just to be realistic we're probably looking at at least an hour You mean the people here are part of the
process? I'm sorry, to just power through, get it done, you know, instead of bringing it back again.
Yeah. Also, it costs us money to do
that. I mean, I would agree, you know, it would be up to Mr. Larner if he wanted to Yes, I agree. We have a lot of professionals that have come in to deal with this matter. But that having been said, we also have a room full of folks. So it's...
Yeah,
I agree. It's the agenda. And so in the end, yeah, we have to move. I think we have to move forward and power through.
I'm going to ask all the parties then. Obviously, let's be efficient in our speech. Okay. So, do you want to kick it off? Do we need a five-minute break first off? We've been signatining for a five-minute break. We'll be right back. One, two, check,
check.
2:20 – 2:2432 turns
Welcome back. I'm going to propose one thing to my colleagues about the agenda before we proceed, and that is, if you are agreeable to this, we have many people in the audience waiting for our general item, which is Number 11, consideration of the City's ability to shift to at-large voting. That will take a while, and it's worth a lot of public comment, so the proposal is we let these people leave who would like to, and that we have a special meeting dedicated just to that.
What do you think? Yes, we will have to come up with a calendar date so we can do that over email, I guess.
And please don't combine it with another special
meeting. I'll take responsibility for that. We
thought maybe we could
expedite
it. Mayor and Council, we do already have a special meeting on the 19th. Of course, you have your regular meeting on the 26th, and then you have an additional special meeting on the 28th. So you have four meetings this month. That's the tree ordinance workshop Thursday. So that's OK. You know, we know that you all have lives and other things that you have to attend to. So you might not be able to hit all of us, but we can we can make make it around with all of you very quickly and announce the public.
I would also offer that that the 19th, while it's highly important to have this conversation with USD, if that were to move a week or two, it may not change things substantially, possibly.
I think it just depends on the availability of the assistant superintendent and the superintendent, and I'm going to see them tomorrow, and I can certainly ask them that.
There's
another item on the 19th. It was the pool. Yes, the pool is on that agenda as well. We were grouping a bunch of
that one. The pool part probably needs to be. Whereas the other conversation is not as
urgent.
We can't
just do one thing possibly.
We could definitely make sure that the pool part lands, if you will, on the 26th so that it gets considered this month that that is okay with the council. My suggestion would be that we take the
19th And we do the pool and we do the at-large voting. I don't think the pool item would go as long as an hour, maybe between 30 and 45 minutes, I think. That's what I would propose
as well.
So
let's tentatively suggest yes.
I'm not available on the 19th.
At all.
Thank you very much.
So feel free to leave. Thank you. Sorry about that.
And we will officially modify that agenda once we enter
into that. And we'll let you know ASAP.
Thank you
to everybody who came. Yes. Thank you. And thanks to everyone who emailed, too.
Yes.
We'll see you
soon.
All right. All right. Thank you for being flexible, team. Okay, let's move on now back to the special hearing and we'll now move on to item number two, the hearing for Casa Ojai.
So I will not repeat the first part, but we do need to make sure there are the ex parte disclosures are disclosed. As with the previous hearing, the entire city council received several emails from Mr. Larner regarding the matters to be discussed today. And if there are any additional disclosures, please go
2:24 – 2:346 turns
ahead. Nothing other than what everyone was emailed.
Anybody else? Same for me. Okay. I only got what I understood everybody.
Yeah. And I got the same call that I got for the previous discussion. There was no substantive or meaningful conversation back and forth. Thank you.
Okay. All right. So can we proceed? First, we'll go to the city staff presentation. And I'll just remind both the city and the appellate, if there's the same information, no need to repeat. Thank you.
Good evening, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem, and Council Members. We are presenting the staff's argument that the tax collector's determination dated April 8th, 2025 should be upheld, assessing $11,423.37 in tax and penalties against Cameron Larner, the appellant and operator of the Casa Ojai Inn located at 1302 East Ojai Avenue in the City of Ojai, and a copy of the tax collector's determination is included with the administrative report as attachment H.
Because I've already presented history of the city's TOT and the background on the February 27th and September 26th hearing, I will only provide facts specific to the unremitted TOT for Casa Ojai and then assess the appellant's arguments that were not previously assessed with SUNYDA. So like Sunido, the Casa Ojai Inn was randomly selected in 2023 for a compliance audit for its TOT filings from June 30, 2020 to March 31, 2023.
For Casa Ojai, HDL, the city's auditor, issued the audit findings on December 5, 2023, finding the appellant owed $9,519 in uncollected taxes on $63,463 in rent charged to hotel guests, including cleaning fees, crib fees, pet fees, and rollaway bed fees. A copy of the audit findings is included in the report as Attachment B. Due to Casa Ojai's failure to collect and pay on these taxes, the audit found that Casa Ojai owed an additional $1,903 in penalties and $974 in interest based on the city's penalty of interest sections at 420, 421, and 423.
Between December 2023 and May 2024, HDL and the city exchanged emails with the appellant to address his concerns regarding the audit findings, which have been included in the report as attachments C, D, and E. The appellant requested a hearing, which occurred on February 27th, where the appellant appeared in person, presented in support of himself for roughly an hour, and then entered 14 multi-page exhibits outlining his arguments, which are attached to the administrative report as Attachment G.
Like Sunido, please be aware that the Appellant's Exhibit Numbers 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 9 within Attachment G include incomplete or incorrect quotes of OMC Sections 407, 410, 411, and 412, and or include amalgamations of law. On April 8th, 2025, the tax clerks issued a determination upholding the audit findings for $11,423 in tax and penalties, but waived all assessed interest. The determination is included with the administrative report at Guinness Attachment H.
The appellant requested City Council review the determination on April 23rd, and copies of the appellant's appeal request and due process complaints are included as attachment I and J, respectively. Section 430 only requires five-day notice. Notice for the September 16th hearing was sent to the appellant 12 days in advance. And of course, as stated for Sunido, the September hearing was continued to this date after the City Council adopted hearing procedures on April 14th of this year.
The appellant's challenge to the tax collector's determination consists of three main arguments, one of which I will not repeat. But they fundamentally misinterpret the City's Uniform Transient Occupancy Code and complicates the audit process. First, the appellant argues that cleaning fees, crib fees, pet fees, and roll-away bed fees do not fall within the definition of rent.
Second, the appellant argues that the City has no authority to collect uncollected tax from a hotel operator. And third, the appellant argues that the audit should have been based on transaction-level records. Regarding the first argument that cleaning fees, crib fees, pet fees, and rollaway bed fees do not qualify as rent ignores the definition of rent approved by voters pursuant to Measure C and relies on incorrect interpretation of other definitions set forth in the Ojai Municipal Code.
The term rent is defined in 407 again to mean in part consideration charged whether or not received for the occupancy of space in a hotel, inclusive of resort fees, cancellation fees, parking fees, and other fees tied to the occupancy of a space in a hotel. The appellant argues that rent should only include mandatory fees or fees applicable to all reservations. However, the definition of rent explicitly includes cancellation and parking fees, which are optional fees that are only imposed when a transient cancels their stay or brings a car. These fees provide an example of other fees tied to occupancy of a space in a hotel.
because they only apply when a transient seeks to occupy or exercises occupancy at the hotel. Similarly, cleaning fees, crib fees, pet fees, and rollover bed fees are only charged when a transient occupies a room at the hotel and brings a pet or requests a crib, again tying these fees to occupancy and falling under the definition of rent as other fees tied to occupancy.
The plain interpretation of the OMC therefore contemplates cleaning fees, pet fees, crib fees, and rollaway bed fees as rent, disproving the appellant's argument. Appellant also argues that including cleaning fees, crib fees, pet fees, and rollaway bed fees as rent unlawfully expands the definition of occupancy. However, the definition of occupancy includes not only the actual use of possession of a room, but also the right to the use of possession of a room.
As mentioned, these fees are only imposed when a transient brings a pet, an additional person, a baby, or baby to the hotel, or did something while in the room that mandated imposition of additional cleaning fees. Appellant's second argument was explained for Su Nido. It was that the city had no authority to collect uncollected tax from the hotel operator. So I will not repeat that argument.
Appellant's third and final argument was that the audit should have been based on transaction level records, otherwise known as folios. To be clear, the appellant is not arguing that he paid the tax, rather that pet cleaning and rollaway bed fees are not rents subject to TOT. Therefore, this argument is irrelevant, absent evidence that the audit overlooked the payment of TOT on these fees.
Notwithstanding, I invite the City Council to review the second page of the Audit Report dated December 5th of 2023, included with the Agenda Report as Attachment B, which requests the appellant to contact HDL, the City's TOT processor, within 15 business days to discuss the audit and provide documentation demonstrating the filings submitted were properly made.
When HDL emailed the audit report to the appellant, seen in attachment C, HDL again requested that if the appellant disagrees with the findings, to please send an email with your supporting documents for possible revision. Furthermore, before the audit was complete, the appellant provided HDL with trial balance sheets as shown in the appellant's Exhibit E-mail 03, dated May 16, 2023.
At no point during the multiple email exchanges with the HDL and City staff, seen in the attachments C, D, and E, did the appellant raise the issue regarding the audit methodology. The appellant was clearly afforded the opportunity to provide records to HDL to inform the audit. And if the appellant remained unsatisfied with the audit findings, he had ample opportunity to provide the transaction-level records he now argues was required for the audit.
For this reason and because appellant did not raise this as an issue at the February 27, 2025 hearing, the appellant's argument that the audit required transaction-level records or that he can now provide those records cannot stand. Like Zunido, please be aware that Carrie Calloway, Audit Manager with HDL, is available to answer any questions the City Council may have regarding the audit process and the methodology.
At this time, City staff recommends that City Council independently review, consider, and analyze the administrative report, the information presented, the oral and written testimony by all parties and their witnesses, and the record, and make a decision to uphold the tax collector's determination dated April 8, 2025, which held that the TOT and penalties from the audit findings dated December 5th, 2023 were properly assessed against the appellate.
Thank you.
Thank you. Okay. Please come up, sir. Thank you.
2:34 – 3:041 turns
So first, thank you again. I'm just going to refer back to my procedural objection for the record. Ditto for Casa Ojai, all that was said. I want to start by Also, objecting to the Council's previous decision regarding Sunido and that the issue that I raised regarding uncollected taxes did not appear in my observation or years to have been addressed. Only cancellation fees was addressed, and in fact, the actual controversy was over deposit forfeitures, which This was not specifically discussed by Council, and a deposit forfeiture is not equivalent to a cancellation fee, and not all cancellation fees are the same, and the OMC does not define a cancellation fee. So just the fact that the name is included does not give license to tax whatever the City wants.
And that is my objective. Let's see. I just wanted to rebut briefly something that the city said. They claimed that I indicated that the fees that were assessed against me do not fall under the definition of rent. That is not exactly what I had asserted. My main assertion was that they don't fall within the definition of occupancy. And that rent doesn't determine occupancy.
Occupancy is what the ordinance is authorized to tax. And thus, rent is a mechanism in the ordinance that is to be understood as a whole. And the ordinance has different functions as laid out in the different sections. And rent's function is not to determine occupancy, it's to monetize occupancy, weigh it and translate it into a monetary value so that a percentage rate can be assigned to it to calculate rent.
When the definition of rent is modified or understood to expand the definition of occupancy, It creates structural incoherence with the ordinance itself. It's not a rent tax, it's an occupancy tax. Rent is just a mechanism, a calculation, it's a calculator. It weighs the occupancy. Once the occupancy is weighed, it comes up with a value, and then it calculates tax on that. So the fact that Measure C put language into rent created structural disharmony in the ordinance itself, which in part is why we have confusion on this issue. When you read the definition of rent myopically, in and of itself, Yeah, okay, it says cancellation fee, it must be cancelable. That is a short-sighted and very narrow look.
You have to look at the ordinance as a whole. It's an occupancy tax, and the ordinance defines occupancy. And when you add language to the definition of rent to append other fees to the definition of occupancy, you've just expanded the tax base. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Adding additional other charges that are related to occupancy is not structurally feasible, and an interpretation that allows such to expand the tax base should be excluded.
Now, since CASA did also have a deposit forfeiture, I assessed against it. I would like to address that first. As I did before, but the central issue before the council is whether the city, the OMC, permits the city to impose tax liability and related penalties on an operator for taxes that were never collected. Oh, I'm sorry, that's the... All right. Cancellation fees and occupancy. So what counts as occupancy? Occupancy is the use or possession or right to use or possess a hotel room or lodging. That's the definition of occupancy.
If neither use nor a legal right has attached, there is no occupancy. Just because the word occupancy or the intention of occupancy or there's an expectation of occupancy does not give the right of occupancy. Just because someone pays a deposit expecting occupancy, that is not a transactional right to occupy. Obviously, because it can be revoked, rescinded, removed before occupancy. The Measure C made it very clear, and the proponents of Measure C made it very clear, that the occupancy tax was a tax against tourists. And the purpose of the tax was to replenish the city for the impact that tourism had on its municipal services and the city as a whole. So the fact that someone could intend to stay in Ojai, intend to stay at a room, book a room, then cancel it, never stay, never set foot in Ojai, is not in the intended vision or contemplated as taxable under Measure C's provisions and under the advertised mechanism by the City Council, by the proponents of medicine.
It was very clear it was a tax for staying in a hotel room, not a tax on someone that never stays. Rent is the consideration charged, whether or not received, for occupancy. And expressly includes cancellation fees and other fees tied to occupancy. I grant you the words are there. And tied to occupancy seems to be the operating means by which all these charges, whether they are occupancy or not, are Thank you very much.
Brushed in to the overall definition of occupancy. It seems like a cute little trick to change the definition of rent to expand the definition of occupancy without ever actually modifying the definition of occupancy. Who owes the tax and when? The tax is imposed for the privilege of occupancy and is owed by the transient. It's a debt extinguished only by payment to the operator. The transient pays the tax to the operator at the time rent is paid. So to address Councilman Whitman's comment about the timing, whether it happens when they make the deposit or not. The code says, and you are bound to uphold the code, the OMC says in 410 and 411, the transient pays the tax to the operator at the time the rent is paid. The rent is not paid when a deposit is made.
That is a preliminary payment. A prepayment is not equivalent to a payment. So, again, the tax event is when rent is paid. The rent is paid when there's an exchange of consideration for occupancy. A cancellation that occurs before the arrival date and the room is released, it's made available for occupancy for somebody else, that room now can be rented. If that room is rented, we collect tax on it.
If we collect tax on the cancellation fee, we've just collected tax twice for the same occupancy. That doesn't seem like what the founders of this ordinance anticipated. Not to mention the fact that, in general, double taxation is not something that is typically permissible on the same exact date, on the same exact room, taxing it twice. The operator's duty is tied to collection timing. The operator must collect the tax to the same extent and at the same time as the rent is collected.
This anchors the operator's duty to actual payment events, not to mere accounting accruals like deposits. Deposits are liabilities. They are not revenue. They are not payment for occupancy. Pre-arrival cancellation where no right ever attached. The room released for sale. If a guest cancels before arrival and no enforceable right to use or possess the room ever matured, only the potential for occupancy existed and was severed by cancellation.
Why would an occupancy tax something, occupancy that never occurred? It doesn't make any sense. At the very least, it's ambiguous, but I would say it's more than ambiguous. It's a contradiction. Any resulting charge is contract damages. Contract damages are not taxable. They're not defined under occupancy. They do not provide occupancy. It is not rent and no tax collection duty arises because no rent is being collected.
If a fee is associated with a retained right that is not used, No show fee. That is occupancy. The right is retained, but it wasn't used. The transit gets charged anyways. It's a no-use fee. They had the right. They could have used it. They didn't. The hotel reserved the room. They didn't rent it twice. Where a conferred right to occupancy is retained and not canceled by the transient, yet the transient fails to use the room, the rent associated with one or more of the reserved nights, depending on the terms, is charged as taxable.
Again, I said this, no double tax on a single room night. If pre-arrival cancellation with no right attached is treated as damages and the room is later sold to a substitute guest who pays rent in tax, taxing both the breach charge and the latter Would tax one unit of occupancy twice, contrary to the ordinance's focus on the privilege of occupancy as the taxable event.
Non-refundable reservations. The refundable nature of the contract does not determine occupancy. If the guest never cancels the reservation to release the room for sale, the fee charged is taxable. For occupancy, whether the guest is present or not. However, if the guest cancels the reservation, thereby releasing the room for sale and forfeiting the right to occupancy, the deposited funds are charged as deposit forfeiture. Not a cancellation fee, a deposit forfeiture, and not taxed as the payment does not constitute consideration for the right to occupancy. At the very least, these arguments create ambiguity, but I would say the fact that the language cancellation fee is in the ordinance requires A further definition and guidelines as to what cancellation means, when it attaches to occupancy and when it doesn't.
General guidelines. What would support taxability? Non-refundable prepayment when the guest still has the right to stay. Deposits applied to room rent. Deposit retained while the room remained held for the guest and unavailable to others. No-show charges where the room was held and the guest could have occupied it. What wouldn't support taxability? Deposit forfeited as damages after cancellation. Deposit retained after the room or room was blocked and released.
Security deposit retained for breach, damage, or failure to meet pickup terms in terms of groups. Deposit that never gave the payer an enforceable right to use or possess the room. The taxable question is not whether money was paid to reserve a room. It is whether the payment brought or preserved the legal right to occupy the room. The individual ancillary fees.
So, as I asserted, one of the problems with Measure C and adding these additional fees is that it does seem that this brought new collection methodology to the city. We have, I have provided emails from former City Manager Vega with Jeff Wells that discuss this, that indicate that the collection of certain fees that previously weren't collected would begin to be collected, and specifically they spoke of resort slash amenity fee.
In that case, Vega and Wells, in their discussion, determined that if an amenity fee was mandatory, Vegas' position that that might be taxable. Wells' position was that if the guest has a right to opt out, then it's not taxable. So I would like to ask the tax collector, Mr. Harvey or Ms. Cho, To elaborate on that, does that mean that, and I also heard Mrs. Callaway mention it, and they referred to opting in or opting out. So does that mean that if fees are optional, they are no longer bound to be? Taxable, is the test whether the substance of those fees are occupancy, as defined, a room for lodging, or is the substance whether they've been added because of the expanded definition of rent, where anything that gets paid that's tied to occupancy is suddenly occupancy?
I don't think rent can determine the substance of occupancy. It's the tail wagging the dog. Occupancy is the dog. Rent is just a calculator. The architecture of the OMC as written, I'm just going to go over this because it doesn't seem like I'm making it clear or have made it clear. So 410 imposes a tax for the privilege of occupancy. That's the taxable substance. The tax exists because a person occupies a room, not because they paid fees, not because they brought a pet, because they occupied.
405 defines occupancy as use, possession, or right to use a possessor room for dwelling, lodging, or sleeping purposes. This is the load-bearing definition. It defines what is being taxed. 407 defines rent, the consideration charged for occupancy. Its structural role is to define what counts as payment for that taxable thing. It answers, when the City says tax 15% of rent, what is the value of that occupancy? That's what rent is.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Consideration. That consideration goes on the scale. The scale is rent. In my diagrams, one of the diagrams illustrates this with the scale. It weighs occupancy against consideration. All the money, the gold, the chickens, labor, whatever you wanted to pay for occupancy, rent is making that adjustment. It's saying, OK, you're going to pay this. Thank you.
And mathematically, and I put a mathematical equation on one of the diagrams, it shows that in doing so, you actually enlarge the tax base beyond occupancy, because you've included fees that are not occupancy. associated with occupancy, a charge that's associated with occupancy, a crib fee, food, extra beds, a rental, Wi-Fi, almost anything that's not the room itself.
That's associated with occupancy, but that's not defined as occupancy, is additional to occupancy. So by adding this terminology to rent, essentially what Measure C did was it said, okay, well, we're going to create another tax base. That other tax base is going to be ancillary items that are associated with occupancy, but that aren't occupancy. So it seems to me it's like, I don't know if it was on purpose. I don't know if it was a cute trick.
But anyways, when you try to wrap your brain around it, when you think about what is the taxable thing, it's occupancy. It's not everything that's associated with occupancy. Okay, so the exchange that triggers the tax is the occupancy exchange for rent. The tax is levied on that rent paid in exchange for occupancy. That's the event. What Measure C did, and I'm reiterating because I'm freewheeling and also reading off the page. By inserting resort fees, cancellation fees, and parking fees and other fees tied to the occupancy of space in a hotel, into the definition of rent, the city attempted to expand the taxable race by redefining the payment side of the exchange, not the substantive side of the exchange.
Rent is just the payment. Occupancy is the thing that's being taxed. But rent structural role is already fixed. It is the consideration for occupancy. And before Measure C, this wasn't confusing because that additional language didn't exist. There was no other fees tied to occupancy in the definition. And that's part of my argument. In Measure C, it says that the city wasn't attempting to change the definition of rent, yet they patently did because they started collecting on other fees tied to occupancy. That's not occupancy.
So, and even in the case of a parking space, let me see here. So, the city attempted to expand the taxable base by redefining the payment side of the exchange. But rent's structural role is already fixed. It is the consideration for occupancy. You can't make a parking fee taxable by calling it rent if parking is not occupancy. Parking is not tied, it's tied to occupancy, but it is not the substance of occupancy. And the case, BAT versus San Francisco, bared this out.
The complaint there was that the guest paid tax on parking. And she said, what's parking got to do with the room? It's not part of the room. So occupancy is supposed to be a tax on the room. San Francisco said, well, our definition of occupancy is the room and services and furnishings and everything associated with the room at the hotel. So BAT says, yeah, tax everything, right? But Ojai doesn't say that. Ojai says, tax this.
Does anybody want to know what this is? This is lodging. This is space in a room for lodging, dwelling, or sleeping purposes. It's not anything else. I agree with the city. What you're doing is you're saying that, well, because they put this little trigger in rent, now it's like change the calculation. It's like putting a weight on the scale, as my illustration shows. It's changing the dynamics so that they can actually increase the tax base without modifying the definition of occupancy. It's a Trojan horse.
So, the additional language in 407, it doesn't expand the fact. It actually overwrites the relationship between rent and occupancy. It severs rent from its predicate. A charge can now be rent under 407, even if it has no connection to the 405 definition of occupancy. That's not clarification. It's structural incoherence. The two definitions no longer speak coherently together. The model of the ordinance has been broken. The purpose of defining occupancy, the purpose of defining rent, the purpose of defining the tax for the privilege of occupancy is broken by Measure C and the way the City's interpreting it.
There's two independent failures there. Structural. Measure C language inserted into 407 is incoherent in context because rent's role is to be the consideration, the money for occupancy, as defined in 405. Expanding rent to include charges that aren't for occupancy doesn't just expand the tax, it breaks the definitional chain. Section 410 taxes the privilege of occupancy. 405 defines occupancy. 407 defines what counts as consideration for occupancy, not what counts as rent—I mean, not what counts as taxable, but what counts as the consideration. You know, which goods, which services, what barter exchange is You know, applicable for rent, not the, you know, not something that changes the definition of occupancy. All three must point at the same thing.
After Measure C's codification, the way in which the City is attempting to assess tax, they don't. No longer is there an equivalence across those three load-bearing definitions. Now the fair notice issue. The ballot summary, voters read, said similar feet. A narrower formulation that operators could reasonably read as limited to fees analogous to expressly listed examples like resort parking cancellation. The codified text says, other fees tied to occupancy of space in a hotel, which the city now reads as sweeping in anything incidental to a hotel stay, regardless of whether it's consideration for the room itself. Neither formulation was accompanied by any guidance Thank you very much. Thank you.
The room for dwelling, sleeping, and lodging purposes, and all fees associated with that experience. That's what BAT did, and that's what the judge for BAT focused on. BAT was wide. It specifically said what occupancy was in the definition, so parking was included in that. Ojai doesn't do that. They didn't do that. It still doesn't do that. Operators aren't trying to evade the tax. I'm not trying to evade the tax. If the city had ever clearly communicated, pet fees are now taxable, that's what you need to collect, right or wrong, I would have done it. You know, why go to all this trouble?
My big thing is I don't want to pay somebody else's tax, and I also expect clear tax guidance from the City, but that wasn't given. Operators most likely would have passed on the cost of the transit and be done with it. That's what everybody else is doing. All the other operators, they have the same problem, but they just don't want to stand up here and talk about it. They don't want to pull it out. The juice ain't worth the squeeze.
They don't feel like the council or the city is going to listen to them, so they just pay it and move along, just another cost of doing business. But I just found that to be wrong. The entire mess, the debt reassignment, the retroactive assessment, the 14-month hearing saga, all of it flows directly from the City's failure to communicate a coherent, legally grounded, taxable standard before enforcing it. I even asked, Mr. Harvey over here says, you know, come to the City, we will explain to you how the tax code works and what's taxable. I asked him point blank. I gave him a list of things.
You know, which of these are taxable? He refused to answer. And the same with Saul, the HDL. I mean, he answered vaguely. He said, well, you know, it's mandatory stuff or, you know, if it's room-related or whatever. There wasn't anything structurally in the ONC that had a nexus to how he was evaluating what should be taxed. It was just, well, it's tied to occupancy. Occupancy, the word occupancy, if it has anything to do with the hotel stay, taxable. That's not what the ordinance says. That's why I'm here. The ordinance doesn't say it. Fix the ordinance. I'm good with it. Give us, you know, published guidelines that say, well, the ordinance doesn't say it, but here's the clarifications. So this is what we really want you to do. So if you don't want us coming after you, and you don't want us like assessing you, and you don't want to pay somebody else's tax, here.
This is what you should do. Fefe's, fine, done. Could have been settled years ago, but it wasn't. And so here I am. And then I'll save my point on uncollected tax for my rebuttal, because it didn't seem that anybody in the Council gave that thought in their determination in the prior hearing. Thank you.
3:04 – 3:095 turns
Okay, any public comments out there or are you receiving any cards on this?
No new cards received and just double check, we have no raised hands on
Zoom. Okay, all right. We could ask some questions, but let's go to the rebuttals and then we'll have council questions, if there are any, please.
Pursuant to hearing procedures, Council does not have the authority to decide whether a city ordinance or resolution is illegal, unenforceable, or unconstitutional. Council decision is limited under Section 431 to whether the determination of the tax collector was correct and, if not, what tax interest and penalties, if any, are due to the city from the appellant.
The record demonstrates that Cameron Larner, owner and operator of the Casa Ojai Inn, failed to collect TOT and qualifying rent for the period between June 30, 2020 and March 31, 2023, and failed to remit the same amount to the City. Therefore, the City should uphold the tax collector's determination dated April 8, 2025, finding $11,423.37 in tax and penalties was properly assessed against the appellant.
Cleaning fees, crib fees, pet fees, and rollaway bed fees are taxable rent under the OMC, which imposes tax on rent under Section 410. The City's definition of rent under Section 407 clearly covers these types of fees. The appellant's interpretation of rent ignores the inclusion of cancellation fees and parking fees, which are examples of non-mandatory fees tied to occupancy in the definition.
Cleaning, crib, pet, and rollaway bed fees are only charged when a transient occupies a room at the hotel and brings a pet or requests a crib, tying these fees to occupancy and falling under the definition of rent as other fees tied to occupancy. The plain interpretation of the Ojai Municipal Code therefore contemplates cleaning fees, pet fees, crib fees, and rollaway bed fees as rent, disproving the appellant's argument.
Moreover, it is commonly understood that occupancy includes services and accommodations that may be enjoyed outside the room rented. The OMC also clearly requires hotel operators to collect a 15% tax on all rent charged to transient guests, to hold that collected tax in trust for the city, and to report and remit these taxes to the city on a quarterly basis.
The OMC does not exempt an operator from this duty, nor does it prevent the city from collecting taxes owed from the operator. Here, the appellant, as the hotel operator, should have collected tax on cleaning fees, pet fees, crib fees, and rollaway bed fees from transients, and does not excuse from paying the TOT because of this failure. The city is not required to pursue transients for unpaid tax, nor is the city prohibited from going after operators for uncollected taxes.
While the city may go after a transient directly under Section 411, it is not required to do so and it is empowered to go after the operator that failed to collect TOC under Section 425. Adopting the appellate's interpretation would ignore the plain meaning of the Ojai Municipal Code, would make the audit findings unenforceable, and would overlook the city's duty to enforce its own laws.
Furthermore, the city is not held to statements of previous employees regarding unofficial city policies. Lastly, the appellant's arguments alleging the audit methodology, challenging the audit methodology, are irrelevant on this appeal as the appellant argues that fees are not taxable, not that he did not pay the fees. The audit did not need to be based entirely on transaction level records. HDL received folios for months in which there were discrepancies between rent received and the TOT paid.
As noted in the December 5, 2023 audit report and the email from HDL to the appellant in Attachment C, and not having raised this issue at all until this appeal hearing, the appellant has had ample opportunity to object to the audit methodology used and provide the transaction level records he now argues were required for this audit. The appellant is not arguing that he paid TOT on cleaning, pet, crib, and rollaway bed fees, and has not provided evidence that the audit should have found that he paid these fees.
or paid the TOT on these fees. Appellant's argument that the audit required transaction-level records or that he can now provide those records cannot stand. At this time, City staff requests City Council make a determination after independent review, consideration, analysis of the administrative report, information presented, oral and written testimony by all parties and their witnesses, and the record to uphold the tax collector's determination dated April 8, 2025, Which held the TOT and penalties from the audit findings dated December 5th, 2023, were properly assessed against the appellant. Thank you.
Thank you. Mr. Lahren, please.
3:09 – 3:253 turns
I am not asking Council to render the ordinance or Measure C invalid. That's not what I was saying. That's not my point. I'm saying that as written, it can't support a tax interpretation for fees tied to occupancy and still be true to the main taxable substance, which is occupancy, not fees tied to occupancy. I submit that any interpretation that would include the fees tied to occupancy as appended to the definition of rent is an incoherent, inconsistent reading of the fundamental principles instantiated in the ordinance itself.
Now, to uncollected taxes. This would be helpful if you brought up this little page, which I think is diagram 10, which refers to uncollected taxes. So, a central issue before the Council is whether the OMC permits the City to impose tax liability and related penalties on a hotel operator for taxes that were never collected from the transient. 425 allows the City to determine and assess tax.
But it's a procedural tool to measure tax, not redefine liability. That section may say assess and create a report, but it doesn't say transfer the debt of the tax to the operator. The ordinance consistently ties operator remittance obligations to the tax collected. This Council must uphold the actual plain language of the ordinance. The fact that the City believes that adhering to such plain language conformity would jeopardize the City's ability to enforce tax collection or to receive taxes is unfounded, and there is no evidence to support it.
I myself have already remitted, you know, 99 point whatever percent of all revenue that we've collected as tax. So this is, even though I'm not collecting on these, on the particular items that I felt, as the operator, did not meet the definition of occupancy in the ordinance, There is really no evidence or merit to the idea that operators would stop collecting tax if you upheld this decision and actually upheld the plain language of the ordinance with respect to the debt of uncollected tax versus tax collected.
Let's look at the sections, you know, one by one. So 410 says tax is imposed on the transient. 411 says transient pays the operator. City may pursue the transient. So 411 says the debt is not extinguished by the transient, I mean, from the transient until it pays the operator. That's what it says. I didn't write it. You have to uphold it, not the city. Just because they have some outside reason for converting this debt to the operator does not give them the justification under the ordinance. Section 412, operator must collect the tax, not absorb the tax.
Number 417, under 417, the report requires tax collected. In other words, it doesn't say report on tax owed or revenue. It says report your tax collected. On 418, it says remittance is limited to tax collected. So if the ordinance is telling me to remit my return as tax collected, why would I be penalized for doing what the ordinance says? 419 says collected taxes held in trust. 420 through 423 say penalties tied to remittance delinquency. I was not delinquent in my remittances. I remitted tax collected as demanded by the ordinance.
438, operator is liable only for tax collected but not remitted. So if that's what it says, how can you possibly rule otherwise? I just, if you are the council, then I would hope and expect that you would uphold the actual language in the ordinance. 425 says the city has assessment authority, but it's not clear that that translates to debt transfer. It's a measurement, not a liability. You can have enforcement through reporting. You can say, hey, operator, you didn't collect something that we think you should collect. So, you know, deal with that.
And most likely, an operator will turn around and start collecting on it, right? And this could be avoided if there were published guidelines that would prevent this from happening. At the very least, you have You know, seven or eight sections that make this very clear that uncollected tax is not the operator's liability, nor can it be. You have one section that indicates maybe there's something that might be able to be done. It's unclear. You know, maybe there's penalties and fees that can be assessed, but not transfer of the tax.
The assessment, the way I read this, the assessment is a measurement tool. It's an enforcement tool. It's a communication tool so that the city can say, hey, we know you're trying to do your job, and we've entrusted you with interpreting the code, but we think that you're not really following it the way that we interpret it. So let's discuss and get on the right track.
Resolution of ambiguity, tax imposed versus tax collected. The delinquency sections refer to failure to remit tax imposed, while the remittance provisions require payment of tax collected. So that creates an ambiguity. I get it. It's like the city says, well, you're supposed to collect the tax imposed. You've got that duty. Great. But on the other hand, my duty is to remit tax collected. Okay. I did that. So you're going to penalize me for doing what the code said?
Seems a little odd. The ordinance must be read in context. An operator can only remit funds it has actually received. Therefore, tax imposed in the delinquency sections must be understood as referring to tax imposed and collected. tax imposed and collected. Then it makes sense. If the tax was imposed and collected, then sure, it becomes my debt. Then you can collect it. It closes the loop.
If you look at this, this is what this is saying. There's one scenario that's harmonious with the OMC, and it makes sense, and it closes the loop. There's another flow that isn't harmonious, that leaves an open loop. That never extinguishes the tax. How can you support that methodology? How can you support that interpretation? It's contrary to reason, and it's contrary to code.
The remittance provisions define the operator's obligation, while the delinquency provisions enforce that obligation. Reading tax imposed to include uncollected tax would require operators to remit funds never received, contradicting the structure of the ordinance and rendering the tax collection language meaningless. The ordinance already provides enforcement tools, audits, penalties, record keeping, direct recovery from transients. Operators remain accountable without shifting tax liability.
The purpose cannot override the clear statutory language. The City is citing purpose. Purpose is outside the ordinance. The ordinance 402 says that you need to uphold the ordinance as it is written. And if there is a clear path within the ordinance, then you must take it. That's what that means. The city doesn't get to make up things for their convenience or because they have a fear that there might be an issue.
The city may determine tax, impose penalties for non-remittance, require compliance, pursue transience directly. My recommendations define operator liability for uncollected tax. San Francisco did that. So they basically said, hey, if the operator doesn't collect tax, they're liable as if the operator collected tax. That's in other ordinances. Provide clear taxability standards, issue guidance prior to enforcement. Thank you, sir.
All right. Is any council questions for the for the city or the appellate? Okay, we'll close the public hearing and go on to discussion. Oh, any public, we did that already. Just two tiny pieces I might read for my colleagues. One is, it's section 1.425 and that's determinations of the tax collector. And what it says there is, It's a little bit long. As soon as the tax collector shall procure such facts and information as he is able to obtain, upon which debase the assessment of any tax imposed by this article and payable by any operator who has failed or refused to collect the same and make such report and remittance, the tax collector shall proceed to determine and assess against such operator the tax interest and penalties provided in this article.
I'm interpreting that as what's happening right here, right now. And then I would also, I was not there, but when I look at the actual ordinance language from Measure C, there's a piece here, what it says is, Whereas, the ordinance clarifies the term rent and its definitions consistent with the City's existing interpretation and method of assessment, and thereby confirms the existing applicable definition of rent in a manner that is declaratory of existing law in the City's existing tax policy.
So if there was an extension to resort fees and things like that, if that is true, it seems to say in the end what was adopted, it was what was understood to be the existing interpretation. That's how I'm reading what I just read. So when I see Measure C in the language that we were just offered, you know, by the city, The language is clear. If that's an extension and wrong, we're not here to decide whether Measure C was right or not, and I wouldn't want to do that. But the fees that are included, if that's an expansion, then that was what the voter voted on, if that's the case. I don't know if that's the case or not.
So I would just offer that for your thoughts.
So I'll just go ahead and start. There's more confusion than ever, and I just have to say, you know, I honestly feel your pain. I know exactly what you're talking about. You have gone way deep, way deeper in this thought process than anyone else. And it's so deep, sometimes it's hard to follow. You just kept going and going and going deeper and deeper and working on this. And so I managed to follow you, but you went five layers deeper than anyone else has gone. And, you know, we do end up saying, I don't know what it means. Whatever the voters think it might have meant is what I think it might mean.
And that's just not good policy. And I just want to speak to thank you very much to the lawyers, but we hired you to defend us. So I don't expect that you are impartial in this. We hired you to defend the city. So you're going to interpret this and defend the city. So, and I'm in no way casting aspersions on anything that you do, but you were hired to defend us, so you're going to defend us. That's just, that's the nature of what you do.
That's why we hired you, to make the best case for us. So, I don't expect you to be impartial, and neither do I say we hired you to be impartial, because we hired you to defend us in the best way you possibly could. And so to say that we hired you to be impartial, we didn't. This wasn't an analysis of the case. This was to defend us against this. We've heard that a million times that, you know, we have to listen to the experts. Well, we hired the experts to tell us our position.
And, you know, once again, it's the same position that I think that there was very cursory evaluation of all of this. And not by you guys, I think mostly by, you know, the tax collectors or the auditors. It was very, to me, very cursory, and this kind of deep thinking wasn't done. And so, and I think in some ways, it should have been done. But once again, it can't be to a hired vendor to do this deep thinking about a city ordinance. It's beyond what is reasonable to expect of a vendor who's hired to audit.
And so for that reason, once again, my position remains the same. Kim, am I having a problem? No,
3:25 – 3:3017 turns
no, no,
I'm hearing
somebody coming from
that room. Sorry, I'm
having the hearing problem.
I'm looking over here and I'm going, They're like shaking their heads at me. What am I doing here? Because I want to clarify. So once again, my position remains the same. I think that a lot of deep thinking went into this, way more deep thinking than anyone else has done, and I don't perceive that that is going to be able to be evaluated this evening, and I apologize for that. But thank you for making the case. And also, I do believe that most of the, I don't believe that we know how the other hotelers, hoteliers feel about this. I think they do indeed just say, okay, another 6,000, thank you, I'm not gonna cause this, I'm not gonna make a ruckus out of this, because it's not worth my while to do so.
And I have, I find that very easy to believe. So that's my position. Once again, I will not be voting to uphold this. And I'm appreciative, although it's not within our purview, that some of the faults and gaps and problems with this came to light and potentially will be resolved and or worked on. Thank
you.
Yes.
I have a couple of things. First of all, I mean, if you look at the code here, we're not taxing on occupancy. We're taxing on rent, 15% of the rent total, and rent is defined as resort fees. Rent is defined as resort fees, cancellation fees, parking fees, and other fees tied to the occupancy of the space of a hotel. And it goes on to clarify whether it's money, goods, labor, otherwise.
So, to me, that's clear. I just think the code is clear. Now, do we need to, as a practice, let our hoteliers have a list of what that includes? Yeah, I think we do need to do something to communicate All of the nuances of what this means, but, you know, when I receive a folio and it has all of the additional fees, usually there is a tax on all of those fees.
And so I think, so I'm looking at this as it's standard. Again, HDL does these for other jurisdictions. They're not coming to this. They're coming to this for us in our code specifically, But I think these are standard. That's just my perspective. Thank
you. I don't assume that the people we hire are going to be biased. I assume that they're going to do their job and tell us what's right and wrong. And I feel the same way that I did about the last hearing, I think. That I've heard sufficient explanation that these taxes were applied appropriately or assessed or audited appropriately, and I support the audit findings.
I would offer that I support the audit findings and I would remove the penalty and the interest as we did before. That would be my motion. I'll second it.
I just have one final thing to say. The deeper you go, the crazier you get. I mean, you end up coming to circle yourself. It's just the nature of language. It's the nature of law. It's the nature of the world. So I would try to take solace in that. You will always come to crazy. That having been said, I'm ready to vote.
So, for the record, the motion is basically to uphold, not whether, but to uphold the tax collector's April 8, 2025 hearing determination that the audit findings concerning the transient occupancy tax for the period of June 30, 2020 to March 31, 2023, excluding penalties and interest, should be assessed against the appellant. A motion and a second. And
Mr. Whitman
Roll-call vote Passed 4–1 motion and a second. And Mr. Whitman seconded. Ready for roll call,
Show transcript
Okay, we will adjourn the special session. Thank you everybody for hanging out. And Mr. Lerner, thank you too. And tell me when we're ready for the regular session. But does anybody need five minutes before we start?
I would like that.
Take five minutes. Five minutes and we'll come right back.
