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To indicate their desire to speak on an item The meeting is also live streamed on the city's website and on YouTube one on the spectrum channel 10 So I'm gonna call to order now. We're gonna have a roll call, please
Roll call — called by Unidentified speaker 2
Show transcript
and absent our commissioner Walker and Commissioner Aikens
Agenda Discussionitems moved / continued / pulled — click to expand
Well, on the agenda, we have a item about the pop ups I would like to table that to our next meeting if that's possible.
I'm not sure if everyone on the commission agrees that we're going to change the agenda to continue that item.
Everybody okay with that? Okay, and anybody else have any changes or do you want to make a motion to approve the agenda?
I'll make a motion to approve the agenda.
I'll second.
Roll call.
McCattin? Yes. Sims? Yes.
Now we're on to public communications. It's the time set aside during the meeting for members of the public to address our legislative body on items of city business other than those scheduled agenda items. Matters raised at this time may be briefly discussed by members of the legislative body and will generally be referred to staff and or placed on a subsequent agenda under state law, other than emergency items. No action will be taken till we have any public communications that are not gender related.
No, how about online?
No.
All right and I'm assuming we don't have a museum report this evening no okay and now we go to the
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consent calendar these packets are getting thicker and thicker okay we have our minutes Does anybody have any changes? I have one of Craig's. It seems that in this agenda as well and all throughout, there is a slight difference in the name. It was voted to be the Ventura and Ojai Valley Railroad Heritage Trail, and the and is an ampersand, and then between Ojai and railroad it's valley. I'm sorry, can you
tell me what page and number you're on? And I'll make that
note. This is page three of five at the bottom.
Okay,
can you repeat that? It's changing the name to, and it's Ventura-Amberstam Ojai Valley Railroad Heritage Trail. So we get rid of the and, and we put a little Amberstam in there, and then we put valley in between Ojai and railroad. Got it, thanks. And besides that, I have no other changes. Anybody want to make a motion to approve the minutes?
I make a motion to approve the minutes.
Okay, great. I'll second it. Roll call please.
McCann?
Yes.
Sims? Yes Bessaccia? Yes Moore?
Yes
Neeson?
Yes Now we are on
to item one. Oh,
no.
Number two. Thank you chair and commissioners This is a request for a major work permit regarding the proposed rehab rehabilitation rather of two objects of record The Cecil Bruner Rose Arbor and also the brick patio outside of the original living room As well as to construct new outdoor kitchen that includes a fire pit. And this is at the residence located at 1001 Foothill, which is historic landmark number 18, the Libby Gatehouse.
On March 12th, 2026, the Community Development Department presented a concept review of the plans for rehab to the commission regarding the objects of record And the commission expressed concerns related to a proposed four feet high stained wood fence along the 80 feet of the east property line, and that has since been removed. On March 17th, the applicant submitted the revised application and that is here before you today. The Rose Arbor is constructed of metal pipe and fittings with an ornamental exterior open cover of wood lath strips And this metal structure is within thin wire.
Well over half of the wood lath has been deteriorated and rotted with portions of the lath missing. The project includes restoring and maintaining the existing arbor by replacing and rewiring the broken or detached pieces of lath. The patio consists of brick pavers that are laid on a sand bed. And the brick is generally in good condition, but portions of it have been raised or they're sunken throughout the area due to an adjacent tree roots and poor drainage creating a hazard, mostly a trip hazard. And the project includes lifting up that brick, removing the tree roots and then re-leveling the sand bed and relaying the brick per the existing running bond pattern for safety purposes.
Landscape improvements include adding an outdoor kitchen and grill, refrigerator, pizza oven and under counter storage. This kitchen will be faced with brick, complementing the Object of Record brick that was just described. And the countertop and backsplash are to be tiled with colors that complement the exterior of the house and the period of the house, the palette of that time.
Outdoor lighting includes upgrading the existing path lights in the brick patio area, adding new path lights to match, adding barbecue countertop fixture architectural string lights with shades, replacing hanging lanterns in an adjacent oak tree and adding new pathlights on the perimeter of the gravel entry area. All the improvements are proposed to comply with the Secretary of the Interior standards as included on the plans that are in your packet.
See that the applicant is here if there's anything that That they feel they need to add after you ask any questions of me if you have any
Okay, do we have any public comment? Okay close public oh did we have any online
no
Okay. Do we want to open on discussion or do we have any questions for the applicant? Okay. Craig Walker, Commissioner Walker is sick tonight and he did want to add a couple of comments. One was that he is supportive of approving the permit as consistent with the state of the interior standards and he says he would like to encourage but not require owners to grow appropriate vine to add to the tutor design and Encourage but not require owners to lower the wall on the north side to open up the front of the house Okay, anybody have any other comments they would like to add I think also it should be noted that this is coming back to us and we did, most of us visited the property as well.
So I think a lot of our questions have been answered by the applicant. Does anybody want to have a motion or anything?
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All right, you guys are the applicants and Kathy. Well I know everybody knows here that I was one of the owners and residences of this property and I'm thrilled that our applicants are so interested in... Oh, oh this is on. I usually forget. To restore the Cecil Brunner. Hopefully I mean, I gave Kathy. I don't know if you guys saw the pictures of what the rose look like when my daughter got married there?
Yeah it was my daughter and so just feed it and try and bring it back and I'm so happy that you want to restore whole area to be enjoyed by many people coming forward. Thank you so much. I guess I don't need to say anything.
Okay, okay. I wasn't sure when you looked at me and were calling me up. All right, I'll go sit down.
No, Kathy, you're doing a great job in bringing it back to its hopefully... I mean everything dies in time unfortunately but it'd be really nice if there could be some little bit of Cecil Bruner that still survives but thank you so much all of you
Does anybody want to make a motion? Or have anything else they would like to add.
I'll make a motion that we accept this proposal or amendment, or what are we going to call this?
If I may you could make a motion to adopt the resolution approving the major work permit.
I make a motion to adopt the resolution for the major work
permit.
Minor work permit? It's a
major work permit. Does
anybody want to second it? I'll second that motion. Okay, do you want to do a roll call?
McCann? Yes. Sims? Yes Bassascia?
Yes
Moore? Yes Neeson?
Yes All right Thank You
Okay, now we are on item 3. Item number three this is sign permit and minor work permit regarding the installation of one projecting sign and a window sign as well as three window flower baskets for a new business located at 338 East Ohio Avenue This building is a contributor to the California Register of Historical Resources listed on the downtown Ojai Historic District and is subject also to the Arcade Plaza Design Guidelines, and it is within the East Ojai Avenue design guideline area.
It's the Walson Wine Bar. It's a new retail business on Ojai Avenue The applicants intention is to blend with the materials and character of adjacent businesses The Historic Preservation Commission is requested to review and consider the sign permit and minor work permit due to the prominent location within the state designated downtown Ohio Historic District and within the Arcade Plaza Design Guideline area.
There's a section in the Municipal Code that states when you have two permits, you go to the body for determination of the greater determination I guess? And so a minor work permit would normally be reviewed and determined by the director. However, the signed permit is coming to you, so we're bringing them both to you this evening. So the proposed signs and window flower baskets meet the design guidelines in that projecting and hanging, projecting hanging and window signs are permitted sign types. And three window flower baskets meet the material and design guideline standards.
The East Ojai Avenue Design Guidelines include that signs should be constructed to give an appearance of hand craftsmanship And the East Ohio Avenue guidelines as well as the Arcade Plaza design guidelines strongly encourage pedestrian oriented signs. As indicated in the plans that were submitted on April 20th at 22nd that are in your packet, the projecting sign is a suspended two-sided sign hanging from an existing bracket on the front south facing wall of the business perpendicular to Ojai Avenue It's made of brass plate with routed text and is approximately 1.75 square feet, and it's hung in accordance with the required standards for projecting signs.
The window sign is in accordance with the required standards for window signs. This by the way is the color. The window is 2.2 square feet and the proposed sign is 0.72 square feet. The graphic window sign is proposed to be gold vinyl text, and it's installed on the glass of the front door. The commission is to consider if the signs are consistent with the Arcade Plaza design guidelines Avenue Design Guidelines. The building does not have a landmark designation, however it is within the Arcade Plaza design guideline area and therefore the Historic Preservation Commission is being asked to review the proposal.
The three black iron window flower baskets are proposed with a copper planter pouch the installation of the flower baskets may be considered As requiring a minor work permit as the structure is within the arcade plaza design guideline area as well as within the state designated district district Flower baskets are proposed to hang below the three street facing windows on the south elevation of the building and the iron material of the flower baskets Specifically speaks to the design guidelines of the arcade plaza which include planters as well as ornamental iron work iron grill work on windows and As it's a favorable architectural detail and accent staffs recommending approval and Do not see an applicant here this evening I Did we have an applicant online just in case we have questions
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No.
Okay, so if you have any questions of me, I'm happy to Attempt to answer them.
So I have a question. So this is that and This color?
Yes.
Is that, okay looks very different in person.
It's you know when we make a photo or receive whether we make the copy or we or we receive a copy of a color it is often very you know quite distorted so hence bringing it in for you to see thank you
yeah. I have a question. Can we just open public comment is there anybody on line that has anything to say no Okay. And I'm going to close public comment and see if we have anything you want to add to this? Yes?
I have a question for Mara, the senior planner. I was confused a bit by the planter thing, because I swear I read in there the word planter and basket. And I was just confused by
It's a planter basket.
Oh, a planter basket. It's a basket that has a planter
in it.
All right. And what's going in it? Like planted flowers or?
Yes. Well yes, planted flowers. However the flowers haven't been described for you. It's the actual basket and the copper lining of the basket. They called it a
pouch
to hold the soil.
So I'm a little bit confused about where and how they're hanging. Could you kind of repeat that?
Well, they're hanging it below the front the below the front windows so actually how it's installed I'm going to refer to the plan and see We don't we do not have the applicant here with us and I And I see that they're installed below the windows. So
whatever that
means, just as right? Just as I'm sorry. Right. Well, right.
Okay, I didn't see
that. The specific method of installation like whether it's a screw or bracket or that kind of thing is not included on this plan if that's what you're asking for however the location is
My my other question is So this is a brass sign out front I Thought that the signs in the arcade had to be wood. Is that not so
well, we're not in the arcade It's outside of the arcade. We're in the however it does fall within the Arcade Plaza design guide. Okay, which got you right? So So actually this medal is very
appropriate. Okay, thank you I appreciate it
Anyone? Can you tell me about the Arcade Plaza, where it starts and where it ends. So that little building with the two buildings there that are the gym and this, that is separate from the rest. That's part of the arcade guidelines.
So the Arcade Plaza design guidelines incorporate the area on East North Signal all the way to North Montgomery and excluding the Arcade Plaza, you'll have the north side of Ojai Avenue and then the south side of East Matilda.
So even though this doesn't open out visual into the plaza? It's correct. That's correct. OK, thank you.
OK. Thank you. So does anyone have anything else, any other questions? Okay so I have one. Unless something is really small type and I can't see it. Do we know how far out these planters go because I'm reading the The California State Historic District and then do the description of the property And it says the building faces south onto East Ojai Avenue and sits flush with the sidewalk so if the building is coming flush to the sidewalk, that means it's coming like anything going on at the building would be into a The public right of way at the side. So are they gonna be narrow? Do we because I can't see any sort of measurements on them
that's true the act the Dimension is not included on the plan
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That was do we have any measurements
I do not have a measurement of the boxes beyond what you see on the plan.
If people in the arcade decide they want to put planter boxes on their windows, are they allowed to do that as well?
That's the arcade and it's a whole other subject and it's separate design guidelines and it is not before us this evening. So it's only… In the plaza – sorry, in the arcade. I can't answer that question right now.
So think about if it has the arcade above it, then it's in the arcade and then has a different set of rules. But because it's outside the arcade and it's part of the plaza so it has a different set of rules.
And each project would be reviewed individually?
Okay I do have notes from Craig wanting to add what he felt, if you don't mind. It says He would like to he feels comfortable improving the hanging sign consistent with the era and architectural style And he feels comfortable paint that with the approved small painted sign on the door One that it's not in the arcade, so it's not subject to the arcade design guidelines but it is consistent with the sign of the original mysterious in window and It is small and set back from the front so it does not overwhelm the visual impact of the storefront.
He didn't mention anything about the baskets, and I was curious how he felt about it. So I asked him earlier and basically said he searched on the Internet and it showed pictures of those wrought iron baskets as common in Spanish Revival architecture. So he thought the flowers might provide a barrier to the people facing out of the window eating or looking in but if others objects I could see that point of view as well. So my whole thing is just the width of it, if they're like baskets or if they're basket you know so I just that was my only concern but so that was...
So does anyone else have I mean, we could approve everything except the baskets and then have them come back next month with how thick they are. Or we can just if anybody wants to just approve them as is that's fine too with what everybody wants. You're happy with approving it now? So I can
so if that if the baskets are within the public right of way, there'll be they can be conditioned to require or would require a an encroachment permit.
OK. Anybody want to make a motion?
I have one more question, and it's not on the agenda. The lighting that's above
can we stick with just this right now so we can
pull it?
OK, let's let's just let's get this done and then we can. OK. OK, do we have a motion on the item that's on the agenda? Anyone?
I'll make a motion to approve approving the planners and signage for the Walson winery.
I second that. Okay.
McKenna Yes. Sims Yes. Sasha yes more. Yes. Neeson
Yes. All right we are on item number four. I have a
question. Yes With regard to the lighting on this building, there's lights above it and they're awful. Do you know what I'm talking about? There are like two floodlights that are sticking out.
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I'm not currently aware of the lighting.
Well when you're looking at the building it's part of the building. If you're looking at the signage and all that how could you not see the light? Are they
new?
I don't know. I hadn't seen them before. They look like they're for construction, but why I bring it up is because I look at the gym restaurant next door and now it has a light above it that matches the lights on Signal Street that we never were asked about. And I wonder how all these lights keep popping up without them coming to us? That's all I'm just questioning. And so, I know that there should probably be a light again where this light is that is not proper but I want to make sure that it comes to us because my opinion is those lights that have been installed are not within the architectural design of the city of Ojai. Can I go on
a future agenda? Actually what I'd like to do is have staff look into the lighting that's existing there first Okay, I mean of course if you want to put it something on the agenda. That's your look
into it Okay, great. Thank you Now we're a number four
Yes, thank you. So the Historic Preservation Commission is being asked to provide comments to staff to take to the Planning Commission for the requested design review permit and conditional use permit regarding proposed modifications to the outdoor dining area located at the rear of 242 East Ojai Avenue. The project includes expansion of the outdoor dining area and screening of an existing walk-in freezer and utility and storage area. The project is located within the Arcade Plaza design guideline area, and although not a contributor, the site is located within the state designated downtown historic district.
On December 11th, 2025 the Historic Preservation Commission provided support to previous revisions made to the outdoor dining area separate plan from the one you're looking at this evening. The project was ultimately denied by the Planning Commission on March 18th, 2026 And the reasons cited in the denial were based on inconsistencies with the Ojai arcade design guidelines and on the increase in footprint of the outdoor dining area exceeding that beyond the previously approved boundaries.
The current submittal proposes a reimagined and designed roughly 600 square feet area introducing a 30-inch high solid steel fence with combined planter and gated access along with a single 16.5 square foot forest green umbrella canvas Sunbrella canvas umbrella shading 10 to top metal tables and up to 20 chairs as Well, oh and then there are four for top tables and chairs proposed outside of that umbrella area Toward the west side of the outdoor dining area the screened area Includes approximately 84 square feet adjacent to the east of the rear door and And this area screens an outdoor walk-in freezer, a storage area and an existing oak tree. There's also an approximately 18 square foot planter area adjacent to the rear of the building on the west side of that rear door.
All existing brick pavers are proposed to remain in place. Questions have been asked about those brick pavers in the past. There has been discussion regarding the screening of the outdoor walk-in freezer as it relates to the Arcade Plaza Design Guidelines. And within the utilitarian aspects of buildings, the guidelines encourage and specifically state that utilitarian equipment should be screened to the height of the equipment that is being screened.
A height of eight feet and at a height of eight feet and different materials have been discussed for screening Aside from what you're seeing this evening. It's just something of discussion the applicant is considering an overlapped board screen as a potential option as The material will complement the existing materials in the plaza I'm going to pass an example of that to you. It's it's an example of the style, not necessarily of the color And then on to the steel fence surrounding the area. The steel fence and planter that are surrounding the area meet the intent of the guidelines as an accentuating piece, and or architectural feature which is also described and recommended in the design guidelines. So as a recap, the Historic Preservation Commission reviewed and discussed the previous plan and supported the revised metal boundary fence previously seen by you instead of the proposed wood fence.
That was even prior to that. They agreed at the time that the large umbrella with the roll-down sides was outside of the design guideline purpose Additionally, they did not provide comment at that time on the metal tables and chairs. The current umbrella is not as large as the one that was previously proposed and it does not include roll-down sides. It is made of Sunbrella canvas material which is a high quality fabric that's recommended in the design guidelines Staff finds that the application is consistent with the Arcade Plaza design guidelines and the design standards set forth in the municipal code which speaks to context, continuity, scale and architecture. The canvas umbrella will provide shade for the dining patrons while also keeping the patio open and integrated with the surrounding plaza.
The guidelines, the design guidelines encourage umbrellas to create a semi-private patio setting and define space while keeping it visible to the public. The umbrella again is made of high quality cloth material that's encouraged by the design guidelines The patio remodel also continues a favorable orientation towards the plaza with the low-rise steel boundary fence. The guidelines, design guidelines encourage metal for stairways and handrails and guardrails and decorative railings as well as for furniture.
The existing screen around the outdoor walk-in freezer also meets the intent of the design guidelines as the guidelines state that utilities should be screened and within walls, and within the walls and facades. Oh I'm sorry, the walls and facades section of the arcade plaza design guidelines It is included that wood should be used throughout the plaza as it complements the natural landscaping and the mission revival architectural Style that's in the surrounding area We do have the applicant here. If you have questions that I can't answer And with that, I'd like to turn it over to the Commission
0:32 – 0:4555 turns
We have any public comment before we begin How about online?
No.
OK. Any questions for Maura or for the applicant
to close the public hearing?
Oh, let me close public comment. Our
public comment on.
I have a question for Maura. So it sounds like we've completely moved beyond the previous questions about Even the existence of the walk-in freezer and how it was blocking the back facade of the building, are we like beyond that discussion and only addressing the screening of the walk-in freezer?
I'm sorry. I thought I heard Bethany. Sorry.
Yep. I was going to say if I may, I can possibly clarify that question a bit So for purposes of what the planning commission will be considering, they will be considering whether or not to approve a conditional use permit and design review permit. And as part of that, the conditional use permit and design review permit would include consideration of approving the freezer or not. So that is part of what the planning commission will be considering.
So the Commission Tonight is reviewing the plans that have been presented to you and giving comments To staff to forward to the Planning Commission and your comments are related to the Arcade Plaza design guidelines.
Okay,
and does does the proposal comply with the guy with the design guidelines?
I Have a question for the applicant Have has the Health Department approved your freezer outside
Okay, and also I know that's fine. I just wanted to I just wanted the if the applicants gonna speak perhaps his wife or he can come up to the podium and they have to state their name and okay and become part of the
Yeah,
sure
Say my name yes, please Tony Yeno
Yeah, my question was because I was in the restaurant business here in Ojai for over 21 years. I owned Ozu Restaurant which is now The Duchess and I went through hell with the health department Constantly and I'm stunned that they would allow a freezer outside. So you got approval Congratulations for something you very unique, I guess we'll have to hold that in our in our Backlog of Facts to address to them in the future for other restaurants who want to put freezers and refrigerators outside on a patio.
I Wanted to just ask you if it had been approved
Yes,
okay. So before you sit down maybe there'll be questions regarding the whether or not Just regarding that the arcade plaza design guidelines and how this fits in because that's what this discussion will be this evening
I do have a question. So, I have our December packet here and this was after we walked around with your landscape patio architect and he really wanted to know what we wanted as a commission like what we understood and so we walked the plaza arcade with him and we walked to the tea house and all the different shops and he took a lot of notes and when he came back Our meeting on the 11th between us and planning we saw a lot of it Represented the the small patio the tables with the umbrellas now, then the new packet has Curings concrete and drilling into the cement for a large patio umbrella Why did it revert back to? What it was when I thought that you had support both planning and HPC to go forward with the smaller umbrellas and tables
The smaller umbrellas don't fit in that space. The idea is to create an ambiance for our guests, and so the part where I just want to make sure you guys understand that there's no drilling involved. There will have to be a concrete footing put in. It will replace approximately three of those little bricks and will fit right in there as part of the plan. I think it's in the plan package there.
As far as the size of the umbrella goes I've been in and out of that like all over the guidelines that actually you brought to my attention There is nothing that states. The umbrellas should be of any particular size And this is the size that suits this area the best
Okay, thank you anyone else
I have a question about the umbrella. That's the height at the tallest
point it's a center point so
And
then I think the low at the valance is six feet six inches, but I'm not sure about that.
Yeah, I thought it was a Okay So does that fit underneath those those oak branches there hey, okay cool All right Thank You
Okay, so another question. One of the things that when the plaza was created, the idea was in that back area there could be something going on like a parade or something and that's one of the reasons why we want to encourage restaurants to have tables and chairs but that they could be moved. Would this be a trip hazard? Can it be moved for like a special event This the plating of the umbrella.
So first of all, the idea that there would be a parade back There is hard for me to even conceive because there are so many boulders embedded in the ground That would be significant trip hazards That it doesn't feel as though a short footing would be up even something to be considered in there But as far as what the footing looks like the footing does protrude out of the ground by a little bit and the umbrella Goes into that protrusion
Does the umbrella crank down at night, or does it stay up?
It stays up. Okay. We have the ability to crank it down. Cranking it down is an unnecessary task in my opinion for daily maintenance.
Okay. Anyone else?
I have another question. Yes, um, I noticed on the plans that it said that the eyelid back entrance was going to be rebuilt, I think because it's, uh, I went and looked at and it's termite eaten. Right? So are you rebuilding it in the same style or what's the deal there?
Yeah, to be quite honest we don't have a plan to do exactly what we're going to do there yet but it will be in the same rounded style. Right now it's two by sixes that are holding up with a four-by-four post my architect told me that's not an efficient way to do that and I don't think it looks very nice either because it's basically like construction timber Holding the posts together not finished timber. So we would finish it in a nicer way
I
got Gina's been to our shop like we're not we're not cutting corners on how we're finishing things at all
Oh, I'm sure yeah Okay. Thank you
Can we pass do you have this by chance?
I'm not sure what I'm looking at
there. Can we pass this to...
Is that the design guidelines?
It's about the history of your building, it's something that Commissioner Walker put together. I just want to make sure that you have it because there's maybe some photographs you haven't seen and some information you didn't know about. I thought you'd find it interesting.
Thank you I'm not gonna read right now, but
no you won't be tested on it. I promise Okay anything else
Yes How did we get here when the Planning Commission? I thought was a final thing You have 300 feet of place to have your stuff and we're done with this and we're moving forward
** So the planning commission actually denied the request.
** Are we done with Tony? Can we have him go sit? **
Thank you, Tony. The Planning Commission denied the application and since the application has come back... well, the application has been resubmitted with modifications to it so that the applicant is starting over and it will have to go back to the Planning Commission with your comments just like last time.
Okay, because I don't I don't agree with any of this.
So what I'm gonna do is take your comments and put them into the staff report that's going to the Planning Commission and then The Planning Commission will be at a noticed public hearing And your comments will be will be forwarded to them through their staff report
Well, my comments are number one. I don't like the freezer. I don't like anything about it. It's noisy. It shouldn't be there. It is on public property. I don't like the fact that there is now all sorts of stuff on the roof for air conditioning and all of that. It is brand new. There's a life source water sitting out in the corner of the back or the arcade plaza, the front door of the arcade plaza on the right as you're facing the building.
There has been destruction to the building itself. There has been electrical panels installed taking over a whole lot more space than what the last CUP had And I just don't feel this is appropriate because this is Ojai and this is all everybody's space. It's not one business owner's space, and it needs to come before HPC, and there needs to be a proper historic resources study in EIR done about this property before any of this can go forward. That's my opinion. I was there the other day and I actually was amazed, and maybe I was wrong but the back door of your restaurant was boarded shut.
The
plaza entrance to the restaurant was boarded shut. People were eating out there on these tables and the food was being brought around through some other way, and I was wondering how the health department allows that. Maybe I was dreaming but that's what I saw. So I object to all of this before a proper study has been done about this property.
You know my problem is not with you guys at all. As a restaurateur, I've struggled with the city and I know many other restaurateurs magic hour. I will bring up about of walk in inside again it's not you guys it's you you cherry pick what rules apply to who we just talked to two people one group was here about flower pots another Applicant was here and spent a tremendous amount of money with the landscape designer etc about Putting in an outdoor kitchen and fixing a patio in their property. It's a residence I mean I just am bamboozled by what we get here. At the end of the day, isn't this already a done deal? Lucas, I'm asking you. This is a done deal. We are just here as a show.
0:45 – 0:552 turns
So, yeah, I mean jumping on that. I think that moving forward we are working on our survey and the surveys going to answer a lot of questions about what What we have as far as what's historic? but I think that We cannot wait to find out as far as what the Plaza Arcade is Is how it fits in with the State Historic District? How those buildings that the history of their buildings individually and as a district how They they come into play. And I think it's It's the city's responsibility that we do an EIR on the on the plaza before it gets to planning because We are we are not having we don't have a complete picture of anything in And I feel like we just jump around piecemealing all of these things together. And when it came back to us where we weren't choked, where we could talk about the freezer, it's already done and it's already been approved and the expenses that the applicant has taken on is just tremendous.
And once again, if it came to the HPC first and to planning in the early stages this wouldn't have happened. We would have an opportunity to discuss the importance we would had the public have a forum to come and talk about it. It does feel very backroom sort of thing. It really...we need to understand What this is this as a whole? Holistically what the plaza is and we really do need in study done before it goes to planning. It's my opinion Anyone else I have you asked for Craig's opinion, would you like to read it? It's Okay, I'm gonna want to read Craig's opinion Here's Craig's opinion
Now I'm Craig. Good evening commissioners, my comments tonight concern this project's compliance with the California Environmental Quality Act CEQA as it relates to impacts on historic resources In my opinion, the information the Historic Preservation Commission has been given is incomplete and does not contain the level of analysis necessary to support a finding that this project would have no significant impact on the City's historic resources.
Most importantly, there is no documented evidence or analysis in the public record as required. This is a discretionary project before the HPC and therefore subject to environmental review under CEQA. The project involves resources associated with the downtown Ojai Historic District, including 242 East Ojai Avenue, a contributing structure within that district.
In addition, portions of the project affect the arcade plaza which may itself qualify as an historic resource but has not yet been evaluated. The plaza's lead architect, Zelma Wilson, who also transformed the Smith-Hobson House into today's City Hall is not even mentioned in the staff report. The staff report concludes that no historic resource review is necessary because the project supposedly does not directly alter a contributor to the Historic District.
This conclusion however is not supported by the evidence and overlooks the fact that CEQA recognizes both direct and indirect impacts to historic resources. Indirect impacts include changes to setting, visual character, spatial relationships, pedestrian experience, and the features that convey historic significance. This project introduces substantial visual and environmental changes.
A large walk-in freezer, fencing and screening, exposed ductwork and utilities, boarded windows, water tanks, noise impacts, and oversized modern elements that obstruct pedestrian circulation and degrade the plaza's association with a Spanish theme intended for the area. The north elevation of this 1906 building has functioned as part of a public-facing civic and pedestrian plaza for nearly 50 years.
With this project, portions of it now reads more like a service corridor than part of an historic plaza. You can't relocate a historic resource or wall it off from the public right-of-way and claim no impact of the historical significance of the resource. Whether these impacts are ultimately determined to be significant or not, CEQA requires that they first be studied and documented. This is yet to be done. The city has not prepared even an initial study assessment addressing potential impacts of the historic resources in the area. We have no independent professional study in the packet, no analysis of visual integrity or cumulative impacts and no formal determination as to whether the Arcade Plaza itself qualifies as a historic resource for CEQA purposes A few months ago, I submitted my own research and a historic analysis concerning this building and the project's potential impacts.
That information also does not appear in the public record before us tonight. As a result there is insufficient factual information for this commission and ultimately the Planning Commission and City Council to make informed findings supported by substantial evidence. Under CEQA, historic review generally requires two questions to be answered. First whether historic resources are present either on the property or nearby and second whether the project may cause a substantial adverse change to those resources either directly or indirectly That analysis was never done staff just decided that no further CEQa review is required quote-unquote The categorical exemptions listed in the staff report do not apply where there is a reasonable possibility that a project may adversely affect a historic resource.
Because this project involves a state-listed historic district and a contributing historic structure, any exemption must be supported by substantial evidence in the record. At present that evidence is lacking. I also want to note that the procedural history of this project has created understandable public confusion. The project appears to have been completed in large part without any clear notification to the HPC, Planning Commission or City Council explaining the basis for the approval.
At first, the HPC Planning Commission and public were told they couldn't talk about the freezer electrical panel and fencing. Now we are told we can talk about them but we have been given no factual evidence or historical analysis on which to base our findings. In addition some features of the project previously denied by the planning commission Now appear to be returning without any meaningful explanation.
This confusion underscores exactly why CEQA exists, to ensure a transparent public process grounded in evidence analysis and informed decision-making Based on the record before us tonight. I respectfully recommend three actions first require preparation of an appropriate CEQA analysis addressing impacts to 242 East Ojai Avenue the downtown Ojai Historic District the mural and the arcade plaza including visual spatial pedestrian and noise impacts, as well as an evaluation of whether the Arcade Plaza qualifies it as a historic resource.
Circulate the draft report to the public and commissions to include their input in the final report. Second, require removal of features that adversely affect the historic environment including the fencing, freezer enclosure, exposed utilities and incompatible screening elements. Due to the City's error it should help with the expense of relocating these items.
Third deny the expanded outdoor seating enclosure oversized umbrella and movable steel planters and inappropriate furniture. I Support the Planning Commission's previous decision Preserve the plaza as flexible public space Compatible with the historic mission and Spanish character of downtown. Oh, hi. Thank you And that's from Commissioner Craig Walker
0:55 – 1:0715 turns
Anyone have
anything to add to that? Can that be given to the Planning Commission and
So you don't
have to take notes information that they need to consider when this comes before them
Yes, yes, this can be forwarded to the this we forwarded to the planning commission as part of your Comments and I do have it online. Thanks. I received it through an email from Craig Okay
I just feel like this has just been pushed over and a done deal, and it makes me very upset. I've lived here my whole life, and this is terrible. This is Ojai. This is a place that a lot of us love. And I understand what you're trying to do, and I think it's wonderful, but the way that it has been gone about here isn't your fault at all. It's the city, and
Have anything else to go to planning? No. OK, I think that's our comments.
Thank you.
And if I may, Chair and members of the Commission. I was attending for purposes of that item to make sure that you had any support you needed as you provided your recommendations. I am going to take my leave for the rest of the meeting but it's very lovely to see you all and I was happy to be here tonight.
Thank you so much.
Okay, item number five. This is regarding the Treasures of Ojai and Chair McCattin asked for this to be on the agenda and I'm going to hand it back or hand it over to the chair.
Okay so the Treasures of Ojai who are with us tonight they came to our commission wanting to know if they could individually landmark their building and what it would be like to also have a Mills Act. And that started a lot of conversations with a lot of people, including you, Maura, and to Lucas and our city attorney, the people who are working on our HRG who's working on our Survey and I and I've talked to our mayor. I've talked to council people. I seem to have a lot they haven't had one negative response to figuring out a way to have this Be a fast-tracked way to a landmark or to a Mills Act basically what we're saying is Businesses that are contributing properties within the state historic district are The reason why they are a State Historic District is because they are eligible for the National Register.
So already being a city landmark is like the lowest hanging fruit of state and national, so having an applicant or a store within the State District come in have the expense and the time to find out information that has already been decided by the State of California and by the National Registry that they are already contributing to a state landmark. So what can we do? Well, one thing was I through the channels that I've asked everybody we could Just say everybody that is a contributing property. Every structure is now a city landmark now That might make Politically, that's probably not the best thing to do because that scares people. They think there's going to be overreach even though you're already part of the State Historic District so anything that You'd want to do you'd have to go through the channels anyway But I don't think that would be the popular thing to do and and not really necessary So the next thing that we discussed was Having in if there was a structure within contributing structure within the state district wanting to be a landmark to have them Contact the city, the Commission, the museum Craig Walker who wrote the history book on Ojai.
What information do you have on our building? Gather the information write a little cover letter take a new photo up from the outside of the building and submit it to the HPC If we would agree that it's still a contributing property to the state district, then we would refer it to the city council and they would become individually landmarked. And then at that point there can be a Mills Act contract.
The other thing that we could do would be changing a policy within the HPC that said if you're contributing property to the state district, then you can have a Mills Act. Mills Act becomes really important, especially not as much for people who have owned the properties for decades because their property taxes are lower. But as we're going to see more and more turnover now that buildings are 100 years old and families are changing hands, it's going to be more and more valuable to have a mills act.
It's also one building having a Mills Act and taking care of maintenance that could affect all the buildings because they are all connected, could really be important. I mean worst case scenario if there is an electrical problem in one of the buildings it could affect the entire arcade like it did 100 years ago. So if you are able to have take that money that you would be doing it's giving for your property taxes and and regenerate them over to fixing leaks roofs You know infrastructure walkways, you know windows whatever it was to bring back more features the more features of the Building or just maintenance.
It's a benefit not just to that property owner But it's a benefit to all the property owners within the arcade of the State Historic District but it's also a benefit to the city of Ojai and then to its residents as well because This the downtown is kind of the center the heartbeat of the town So everything that we can do to be supportive is important. So those are the choices And so I wanted to bring it here tonight and we also have the family from treasures of Ojai too We Lauren and I met with them before a meeting tonight and to get their opinion and they had theirs So I'd like to bring them up if that's okay to have them tell us what they think Thank
you. My name is Mason Sexton.
I'm Katrina Sexton. I
am Amanda Castro. So this is really special for me because I get to kind of have a space to be a dreamer. And I really love that about this moment, because I promise you I'm not trying to put a freezer anywhere. bought the business Treasures of Ojai, okay? 20 plus years ago. So before we owned the building, we were the business and through that we get all these really interesting bits of social history It was the grocery store that people remember, it was for a brief moment really sexy art gallery where there were nude people serving cheese. It was like you know so you get all these things and then if the farther back you go in the longer that we've had the privilege to be there the more that we hear these little quid bits right?
A livery for when people came up Creek Road, that's where the horses. That's awesome. Before that there was a boys home on the land. Within the last five years I keep learning more right so even rumors from when The livery became a mechanic, they said that I've heard some old timer tell me that there was boxing going on there and like whoa right. But even within the last 5-10 years you learn stuff all the time that you don't know. And what I didn't know other than the fact that that was built in 1920 Or I don't have the exact year. So around the time that Ojai as a city becomes a city, it was built by the same architect that did the post office. It took me 20 years to figure that out. I had never heard that before. And I didn't go to the depths that you guys would to prove that.
But it does seem that is facts, is that building comes to fruition around the same time as the post office perhaps by the same architect. When the commission first approached me or when we finally connected, I told them that without exaggeration, without anything, we had the opportunity as a family to own the building and that was a big deal. And it's not something that we took lightly. Amanda and I were in Kansas City pursuing art and that's what I thought my life was going to be.
And the building comes up for sale and I have to make this choice to either come back to this business which has been like most of my adult life, I started when I was 16. So to now right it has been at Treasures of Ojai so I had to like make this real mature choice that was like go be a bohemian in a struggling economy and already like over my head or come back here And be a custodian for this building, and it was a really hard decision for me. And I was really grateful to have the support of Amanda because that was something that me and Katrina decided to take on together and boy you guys can imagine it was a lot. We knew it's going to be a lot and it was so much more than that.
Now I get this moment where we get to, I get to like see mom come into retirement and we're looking at legacy and things that get to keep going. And how treasures gets to continue because we bought that building, and we were a dogfight to stick and gum through that business together and we're still going. And now I get to be a custodian for that space. And I think if I had to really sum up my thoughts to you guys, as I was sincere when I told you guys at first, I walked through the door and I am still in awe of that space. It's wonderful, it's architectural, it's just...I don't know.
You love something and that's why you take care of it. And that's really all we want to do. It is a really simple building and we hope to keep it that way.
1:07 – 1:1621 turns
So out of the choices that we discussed earlier, you felt that landmarking was important because it respects the building.
Yeah, I think that just from the...I'm trying to say that just from what I've hodgepodged it's fascinating. And I think that what landmarking can do is sew all these histories together to a cohesive knowledge that not only benefits Ojai but really the greater state of California. California already said that it's significant and let's give the story out why. I think that there's really compelling stuff and hopefully some stuff that we don't know that we still discover. I know that there's this gas station like there's more and more to find
Okay, so and you had said that you agreed with me as far as the first one might be.
Yeah I think that Amanda and I and Katrina all don't mind it being ambassadors but I think that keeping things simple and pretty straightforward is going to be the easiest way and then we can be leaders together from the front there because I do think that there's other properties like ours
In past history, trying to coordinate all of the business owners from the Thomas Fire and all that is just too politically off scale.
A word that came up during the Thomas Fire was bandwidth. I think that bandwidth problem we're concerned about. That would be our biggest concern. And we can control kind of our contribution.
We run the business, we manage the building. We're
a
small family operation and...
We're pretty nimble that way and I think that'd be the easiest way forward.
So the next thing that we will do then is we will discuss this as a commission and decide how we want to go forward and then just keep you all in the loop. They also offered to do events at their shop if we wanted to, to do education. Anything
with the Historical Commission that we can do to help out guys? We have space and we're happy to host.
Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time and your passion with
this.
So here we are. Do you agree with them as far as number three which is just the Mills Act is probably not enough? And number one even though It doesn't change really anything that they would have to go through, contributing property. It's not a good look and I think it would cause politics that are not necessary. Having people make a conscious decision to individually landmark and to Mills Act is something that comes with pride and love for what you're doing. And I think that instead of just saying Your landmark in your you know, it's like it's something that you physically You know do but if we can do this in a way where it's fast-tracked with a nice packet using the State Historic District and Updating with whatever new information that we have and bringing it to the HPC without it being of cost to the applicant, you know that because we were being redundant for if the state district already says that then national It's already, you know eligible as a contributing property then, you know, we don't want to Have an undue cost and we want to make it We want to encourage people to landmark.
And if this is one way to do it I know that we talked about with our budget in having HR ours and residential But this is some nice broad stroke way of helping and encouraging Does anybody have any comments
Yes, I Agree completely. I mean it the building is attached to the arcade and I think the city we should do as much as we can to help anybody in there To landmark and Mills Act their properties and do what we can as much as we ca So I applaud all of your work and I've Watched your involvement with Ojai and the community for years. And so thanks for hanging in there
Okay, so I guess next is figuring out Who do
we come to next? So I was I was taking notes about this and I think that To find out how this what it sounds like is and we've talked about a little bit before you brought this to me before and that is Because it's a contributing structure in the State Historic District That with that and perhaps some other information background get it to City Council and have it landmarked without the expense of hiring without the expense of The property owner hiring out and getting a historic resources report.
It's also right right and further than that it would also be done without the HPC's budget of having a historic resources report done, right? Right. Okay, so what needs to be found out is the logistics of Your this Concept and so in order for me to take it forward and look into it. I would appreciate a Very straightforward email, you know something in writing and then staff's gonna have to look into this and get a determination back to the To you and to the property owners as to how? if who where what when how
okay,
and I'll in that and it'll take legal and It'll take some research.
Yeah, I spoke with the city one of our city attorneys as well as every going up and down the Chain here of command and everyone seems to believe there is a path. Excellent Okay. All right, well thank you guys for showing up and talking. And now we're going to go on to number six has been tabled. Thank you. Can I just speak to why it was tabled? Sure, so this was about doing a pop-up and there was art in the park and that was the next one.
When the whole thing with the sandwich boards and all that we realized that When we met with our ad hoc, talking with the mayor and talking with Kim and Craig and I. We all had different ideas of what it meant, the sandwich boards and the laws and which ones to follow. And then we had an attorney in there too zoom in on his version of everything. And then when I met with Lucas and he came to our ad hoc and it was like when we met with Carla. It's like everyone has a slightly different version Because the laws in that area, there's so many overlays and what supersedes what and everything that the city needs to come to an answer before we are put in a situation where we're going to do a pop-up and we're going to get asked questions. And we are appointed from the city.
And so we need to be on the same page. Even if we don't agree with the page, we need to know what that page is and if we are saying something incorrect and we're having people walk away thinking that the HPC knows what they're talking about and then we find out that there's... So I want to understand—I want to know how to answer the questions before we do a pop-up. Because it is a hot topic item and people see our booth, they're going to walk up and they're going to ask us. And if we don't have the correct answer it just makes the city look bad, makes us look bad just in its not fair to the people spending money on signs and things and all that kind of stuff. So that's why I wanted to table until late because I feel like you're all almost there coming up with some sort of something so just kinda kick that down a little bit.
Okay, now number seven. This is another one of Craig's comments. It's not as long as that last one I promise.
1:16 – 1:182 turns
Number seven so the Historic Resource Survey or Inventory Survey update and yes you, I'll hand it over to the Commission and I know you have something in writing from Craig.
Yes, so Craig had his meetup with our HRG who's doing our survey and he says that the Ojai Historic Context Statement part of the updated survey project is now fully underway. The consultant team at HRG has made substantial progress over the past six weeks. A draft outline of the revised historic context statement has been completed and submitted for feedback. Given the project's limited scope and budget, research is currently focused on several key themes—Native American history, Spanish-Mexican, and American exploration and colonization. The city's growth and restraint era from 1960 to 1985, architecture and design, and communities of color throughout Ojai's history. The consultants emphasized that the context statement is specifically focused on how Ojai's history shaped the built environment.
Research activities are in full swing. Work includes detailed analysis of the U.S. Census records for Nordhoff and Ojai, mapping post-1960 track development and studying important planning documents and architects associated with the period including Zelma Wilson, Shelfant Head, and others. The current scope of work is limited to parcels within the city of Ojai boundaries, so areas outside the city will not be surveyed as part of this project. The consultants anticipate beginning field research visits to Ojai in June including work at the Ojai Valley Museum and the Ventura County Museum archives. They also noted that the historic context statement and field survey work are irritative and will inform one another throughout the project.
Initial research will guide fieldwork while discoveries in the field may generate additional research questions. At this point, actual survey is expected to begin in July. Commissioners and members of the public are encouraged to review the attached project timeline for additional details regarding project milestones and deliverables. Please send any input to Maura who will forward this to Craig.
So, you all got that from Maura today with the timeline? Anybody have any questions about this at all? Not that I can really answer it. There would be more that would probably answer it. Okay so that's just an update and I think we're going to move on. It's funny, it did sound like it was going to be such a small area but when you start reading it sounds like a very big area. To include all of that sounds like a big undertaking.
1:18 – 1:249 turns
So number 8 is the Ventura and Ojai Valley, no sorry. Ventura and Ojai Valley Railroad Heritage Trail. Did I get that right? Ventura and Ojai Valley. Okay, got it. Okay I'm going I'm gonna hand it over to Commissioner Basasha maybe yes
indeed So, a couple weeks ago Craig and I got together with the museum people to discuss how we were going to proceed with this project and making of the signs and designs and so on. So Roger Conrad, who works for the museum and artist Colleen McDougall who's a freelance artist living in Ojai are working on the basic design templates for the signs. There's going to be like certain basic designs that go throughout the whole project.
And then Mark Lewis, who's a local writer and has connections to the museum in Ojai and Craig are working on research and writing text for the signage so that's another group within this to move this along. And then also a series of articles will be appearing in the Ojai Valley News on railroad, trail and signage themes. And the first article appeared recently in the Ojai Valley News. I don't know if you caught that which was entitled When The Train Came To Ojai. That was pretty cool.
Pretty neat photo too. So because another $16,000 is still needed for the funding of this project. The Ojai Civic Association is meeting soon to consider what they may or may not contribute to the project So the initial phase will be 25 signs which will go from Seoul Park to Foster Park understanding that eventually There'll be more signs going all the way to Ventura along the bike path. So this is a pretty big envisioned project So, we hope to have the first six signs installed by Ojai Day and these signs will fall inside the Ojai city limits.
for the old train station and the one over by Grant Station, which is in the Y where Bunce Brothers Lumber used to be. And one at Libbey Park and three others so that's where we are right now. So things seem to be moving along pretty well
That's great. Does anybody have any questions? These are I don't know when we're doing updates like this, I didn't really open for public comment, but sure that if somebody wanted to, we'd know. Right. OK.
And there are updates they're not in right in a discussion or public hearing section Okay,
we have an education update I I know that Craig went to one that he really liked, that he sent to all of us and that he wanted us to watch. And I don't know what it is offhand so... Did it come to you to send to everybody? There was a one that Craig saw that he thought was really good one. I'm sorry did he see it and And asked to be signed up. It was, you know, you can watch them after the fact and he saw it and thought it was really good. He thought that all of us including all of you should watch it because it was really
terrific. It's on different architects. Isn't that the one we're talking about? I
think so yeah.
It was great
but I don't have any others to report about right now Okay. Let me go to our future agenda items. I did have a question about the budget, about dollar amounts that were supposed to be attached to it. Was that supposed to be just an email from us or from you? To find out from Brian how much they like sign would be and It was I supposed to give that to you in a letter or is it supposed to come back to the Commission? Or how
1:24 – 1:3017 turns
I'm passing that along or have passed it along To get to the council. Okay work and or well, I guess it'll end up with finance as well And then information will end up circling back around to you Okay, I'm not sure if This does the arcade paint colors. Did you want this on the agenda? Is that just still kind of hanging around Or is that something that you want on the agenda as a commission?
I Think that was you
I think it needs to be on the agenda just to confirm what the paint colors are we're currently using, because people still are not abiding by them. Even though we approve things, it's not being done.
Yeah, I was talking with the treasurers of Ojai people and I was saying on how we're talking about paint colors and how there was a paint color change for Taramino. And it was residents that were very unhappy that they couldn't get their places painted and they were blaming us but what was happening is they were coming to the front desk with a name and that name didn't match and they were sending them away And it was just this kind of circle of a not communicate, you know, lack of communication of the name of the color match with the new. Sometimes it changes over time. So that's why maybe that would help. That's
why the numbers are important. The numbers. be 1375 will always be that at the paint store. So like Benjamin Moore, whatever and so if the paint colors we have are from 1985 those names don't exist anymore but the numbers do okay? At the paint store. And so we have colors for Taormina that are specific just like we have for the arcade. And they're by numbers? Yeah, well they're my name and number except they're by name because they're ancient but again the number still holds.
So if somebody were to go and say, I want thus and such it will match the swatch from 1985.
So do you still want it come to us just to go over it?
I think the problem is that when we approve a paint color for a project, nobody goes out to make sure that what they're painting is what they're supposed to be using. So it gets painted and it's not right and nobody does anything about it. I mean, I think when a building is being painted somebody from the city should be out there making sure that the paint they're using is exactly what we've approved.
Want to say that a recent color was came into question actually by you and our Newest compliance condition Condition he's not code compliance officer. Anyway, he went out with the color swatch and it matched so and then there was a time where it didn't and the applicant and they had to repaint it and so if I can't say that when a building is being painted we're going to be notified and we're going to be out there looking at that time. However, if something is brought to our attention, we will go out there with a swatch and match it up. And if it does not match up they'll have to change the paint color or come back to the commission. The
problem's been in the past we haven't had the paint chips here.
That's why I think I've committed to you that I will have the paint chips here, at a previous meeting. And so it hasn't come up again. I have committed to bring you paint chips. Did they go back and
paint that is white and it's not supposed to be white?
You know what I think we're talking about Signal maybe and it's supposed to be a Navajo white, right if it is not Navajo white. I will make sure it's Navajo white But I thought that it was it either was or it was repainted one of the other okay? I don't know. I'll look into it That's on North signal So we don't necessarily I think the issue is that isn't what the paint colors are allowed to be. It's the paint chips and the ensuring that what's happening out there is what was approved in my correct
Right, and when people come to the city and to the counter to ask if they're giving you a We Want Penguin Blue and they're being told well that's not on the thing. They need to be told you need to bring us the number because every number at every paint whether it's Benjamin Moore or whatever is all the same number is the same piece of paint
So if somebody came in and said that they wanted a certain color, the name wasn't there in 85. I promise you not going forward but yes going forward but also in the past staff has always taken out the color swatch and they'll say okay well we don't have that color does that color match something in this swatch?
Or just to ask them, please bring me the number.
Well sure but we can also take that color and put that color into our swatch and find out what the new you know what the number is so I Just want to I want to you to feel assured That someone doesn't come in and say I want to paint my house penguin pink And we say oh we don't have that color goodbye That's not happening at our counter So but so so I can take this off of here. OK,
OK.
And I'm also checking the Navajo white or white or not a Navajo white on signal signal and I'm going to check it out tomorrow.
1:30 – 1:3212 turns
Do you know when and if Craig and I are going to be in a council to get reappointed?
I don't have that schedule.
OK, can you kind of put them on the scale a little bit for us?
So I don't make the schedule.
All right.
Thanks.
I just want you to know that that's still it's still an ongoing thing. And there's another question that I had. I guess we're done with the future commissioner comments Yeah, yeah. Okay Are you still doing the minutes? when When Rick did the minutes there was a line for him to sign as well But the minutes that I just signed it not have a line So I don't know if if you took that off purposely or if
that I'm not sure we can talk to we can talk to staff about that so I know the minutes are being done differently now and Maybe partly because Commissioner Neeson is doing him on laptop as opposed, you know It's possible that she's doing them differently than the way commissioner Basasha was doing them. So Do you want a signature on there?
Let's just be like the folder that I had earlier this evening. There were anything that I had to sign and the two minutes that are in there used to have Rick's name on there too, and there wasn't so that's why it wasn't sure.
I do see a line for both myself and for you to sign on the minutes template that I'm using, so I'm not sure if something happened during the printing maybe?
So if you can check that out. OK, I don't have what you have in front. Why don't you show me after the meeting? Because I just want to make sure I don' t have the minutes here. I don''t think that needs a signature. So you'll have to show me what you're talking
about. OK. I just want to make sure that's taken care of. I don't have anything else. Does anybody else have anything? Thank you. I can gavel out if I can find it. Wow, this package keeps growing. OK we're done. Thank you.