Planning Commission Regular Meeting

I'll say it.

I am calling the Planning Commission regular meeting of Wednesday, October 21st, 2026 to order. Could we have the roll call please,

Thank you.

We're live okay The agenda are there any changes to the agenda this evening?

No changes to the agenda

OK, thank you. They are approved as written. Moving on to the consent calendar and the minutes of the October 7th Planning Commission meeting. Are there any changes or corrections?

Yeah. On the roll call for the last meeting it shows me as absent and I was here. I know Sherry and I discussed this so I don't know if a corrected version got put in but I was present.

Any others? Then the minutes will be filed as corrected.

Well, actually Hanson one more was not here. That's correct, so he needs to be in the absence spot

where we got flipped

flipped OK.

Are you noting that Lucas or is Sherry on?

I already

have it fixed. We both noted it.

Moving on then to the disclosure of site visits and ex parte contacts. Katrina?

I went to both sites and had no ex parte contacts.

No ex parte contacts, and I visited the park avenue site.

No exparte contacts or visits on my part.

Okay, I am familiar with both sites and had no ex parte contacts. Moving along to the public hearing we have a miscellaneous permit consideration of a proposed tattoo and body piercing studio called Memento Rosa on at 305 East Matilija Street. Could we have the staff report on that please?

Yes, I'll have Addison go through the staff report and give a presentation. And then we'll invite the applicant to come up and fill in any blanks that we may have left out. And then we can open it up for public hearing. OK. Obviously you guys can ask questions before we do that.

Thank you.

The item before you is a request for a miscellaneous permit for the proposed tattoo and body-piercing studio known as Memento Rosa at 305 East Matilija Hall Street in Unit 101B. The applicant is proposing to operate a tattoo and body piercing studio within an existing commercial tenant space of approximately 535 square feet The proposed business would include three tattoo artist stations and one separate body piercing station, with no more than three stations operating simultaneously.

In addition to the tattoo and body piercing, the studio includes retail sales of jewelry and soft good merchandise such as hats, T-shirts, plants, arts and crafts. The project will occupy an existing commercial tenant suite And no expansion of the existing building footprint is proposed. For the background, the previous uses of this tenant space were all general retail uses.

The reason this item is before commission today is because the tattoo and body piercing studios aren't specifically identified as allowable uses within the city's commercial zoning regulations. Pursuant to Section 10-2.303 of the Municipal Code, use not specifically listed may be considered through a similar use determination. Staff evaluated the proposed business and determined the most comparable listing for land use is public services, which is a permitted use in the Commercial Zoning District, the C-1 district.

Personal services includes businesses such as barbershops and beauty salons where our services are provided directly to individual customers. The proposed tattoo and body piercing studio shares similar operational characteristics, particularly the one-on-one nature of services provided. And then there was a some parking Things we were looking at since the previous uses general retail only requires the three parking spaces one for every 250 square feet Where for this space it requires one parking space?

three parking space per Per station for this, so it grew up to nine. These tenant spaces don't have an individual parking lot. They share parking spaces with the rest of the area. There are three nearby parking spaces with a total of 158 spaces. The proposed resolution includes a condition limiting the business to no more than three active stations at any one time just to help limit the parking demand.

Based on the analysis provided in the staff report, staff recommends that the Planning Commission adopt the resolution approving the miscellaneous permit for the proposed Memento Rosa tattoo and body piercing studio subject to findings and conditions of approval in Attachment A. I'll now turn it back over to you.

Thank you. Do you have any questions of staff before we open it to the applicant?

Is staff if assuming this gets approved, you know if Planning Commission agrees that it is a public or a personal service What is the process for Making the Tenant switch is there a zone change or I'm not its own chain zoning

clearance. Yes There's typically a zoning clearance that identifies consistency with the change over from retail over to personal services In this case, I think it's important to note that within the conditions of approval for this project there are two conditions to note. One is looking for substantial consistency with the site and floor plans on file That's the first one. The second one is the limitation in terms of the number of, so they're identifying the number of stations for this particular use as four in total but they also recognize that they're only going to be using a maximum of three at any point in time. So they're limiting themselves recognizing that they're not necessarily gonna have the staffing for all four but they could have staffing that operates for both the piercing and the tattooing as well.

Okay. So from a next steps process, it would be a zone clearance to identify confirmation regarding what's happened tonight consistent with what the code allows for. Here what you're looking at and you have seen one of these similar in a different zone but similar use within the city this is the second tattoo parlor that is requesting to open up within the city The first one within the downtown area, within the C1.

There was case law that went forward in 2010 which limited the way in which cities are allowed to review and analyze these types of uses so our code actually doesn't have tattoo parlors as an identified use so instead what we had to do is do a similar use determination. That use determination is before this body Knowing that we've already looked at it from a personal services use, similar to barbershops and beauty salons. There is some compatibility between the two in terms of what we've seen in the past. So I think that's kind of what we're looking at here tonight. It's really kind of a use discussion tonight and ensuring that the floor plan is consistent and then recognizing that that floor plan might not be changing Given the the review tonight.

Okay, so when you're doing the zone clearance do you look at? The original approvals of that building because you know if it's in Disrepair right now like there's panels that used to have tile that don't there's a lot of wood rot There's exposed wood that's not painted for the extra for the exterior. Are you looking at that I

That could potentially be maintenance. I think the thing that I think the commission needs to be aware of tonight is that we're looking at the interior pieces and not necessarily exterior, so if they are looking to do any sort of exterior changes, that is a separate review process which could come before this body once again. So all they're doing is the interior if there is Items that they're looking to do that are consistent with what's already there. That could be considered maintenance There is a provision in our code that talks about maintenance, but any changes that are inconsistent with what's already there Would have to come before this body

Lucas question for you for the parking analysis. Are we using three or four? Stations, that's a little unclear to me

So there's four stations there. There's one that's a piercing station and then two of the tattoo, right? So they have basically identified and this is one of the conditions that states that no more than three of the piercing slash tattooing stations will be used at one time. So there'll always be one that vacant.

So the parking analysis is done off of that statement? Correct.

That's why we're looking at nine versus a 12 analysis. And to tear off of what Addison was talking about earlier, this isn't a mixed-use area. So the common area parking lots that you're seeing to the north, to the east, to the west and even on the north side of Mattelaha those are all public maintained spaces As we get into deliberation and conversation, I have some suggestions in terms of conditions approval that we could add and talk about. But I'd hold those till the deliberation stage.

OK. Thank you. Anyone else? Then we would like to invite the applicant to speak should you so wish.

Hi, I'm Robin. So I am the main applicant on there and this is my partner Chance so he is here with me. I have been in Ohio for the last six years raising my daughter. I've been part of a tattoo community From London to Los Angeles for 25 years, and I have just come to really appreciate the art form and also just the community aspect of it. And am really looking to bring that You know, extra body art factor to Ojai. I know there already is some and I'm looking to expand upon that.

I have talked with Hannah. I've gotten tattooed at her shop before and I'm very excited about the prospect of being able to open the shop Just a note in regards to your questions about the exterior. I know that the landlord is currently going through the permitting process to redo the exterior so The I have concerns about missing tiles and such myself from an exterior Position, but we are not That's not our thing to be working on, but I know that he is working on it. Our property manager has spoken specifically about it. They're going to change it all to stucco and my partner here Chance has something that he would like to say.

So I just wanted to present here. My name is Chance Collegiate Robles. I'm a fifth generational. Can you hear me here? Fifth generation member of this town and am I'm wanting to present this with Robin as an opportunity to show what tattooing has done not only in my life but in my community, how it affects people because it is an art form and it is so intimate and personal.

OI has long been known for its artists and spiritual teachers And it's appreciation for peace, creativity and intentional living. I believe tattooing has a meaningful place in those values. My hope is to create a space where people from all walks of life feel safe, respected and comfortable. Some may come to celebrate an important chapter, remember a loved one, honor their heritage or mark a moment of personal transformation For those who wish, the process can include reflection, prayer and a deeper connection to the meaning behind their tattoo.

I also hope to support our local artistic community by creating opportunities for artists to share their work, collaborate and contribute to the creative culture that makes Ojai so special. I want Memento Rosa to be a positive addition to our community. Built upon professionalism, artistic integrity, respect and genuine human creation and connection as someone whose family has called this place home for many generations my intention is not to change the character of Ojai but to help carry those qualities forward into the future I believe that tattooing when approached with care and intention can be a beautiful form of art, healing and connection. My hope is that Momento Rosa becomes a place where those values can continue to grow.

And I really appreciate your time, your consideration and the work you're all doing serving our community.

Thank you. Do you have questions commissioners for the applicants? Not at this time. Okay. Thank you. In that case, we will open the public hearing. And I have cards from Nikitas Ballas maybe?

Hello, my name is Nikitas Balas. I am nervous to speak up here. I'm here tonight to speak in support of CHANCE but more importantly to speak about a young man who was born here and raised here as you said fifth generation. As a young man has worked towards building something for his own right in the heart of the community that helped shape him I think there's something very meaningful about that in a time when there are so many young people leaving communities. He actually wants to invest here, contribute to his downtown and build a future where his art and his business with Robin could flourish.

I also want to speak about the spiritual side of tattooing because I believe there is something we sometimes overlook. Chance's Native American heritage is part of his story. He has actually brought me into that story which I'm grateful for. And across many indigenous cultures, body art markings and symbols have carried deep cultural spiritual and personal significance.

I don't presume to speak for every tradition but I do believe there's something universal in our human desire to express what we hold sacred. I have tattoos of my dead nephews I pass away from cancer, my uncle suicide and my other arm is dedicated to my perseverance through life. I think about the places where people go to connect with something greater than themselves for some it's church for me it's church for others is a tribal gathering a sacred circle meditation space which Ojai is full of and wonderful These spaces can help people find meaning, belonging and healing and connection. And that's what my tattoos mean to me. It's a special place that for a set amount of time I'm able to sit with my feelings and what's going on.

For some people a tattoo can serve as a similar personal purpose it might honor someone they've lost express their faith symbolize the transformation in their life which is what happened to me And I believe that there's room for expression in Ojai, a community that values art individually, individuality and spirituality in many forms. Supporting Chance and Robin means supporting a local artist, a young entrepreneur and someone who wants to build his future right here in the place he calls home.

I still have two minutes. We may not all choose to express ourselves through tattoos and that's okay, and we don't have to share someone's practice or respect their meaning it holds for them. And I hope that you guys can look at this proposal not simply as a tattoo shop but as an opportunity for a young member for his community to bring his craft, his vision, and his spirit to downtown Ojai.

Thanks so much.

Thank You Nikitas Next we have Robin Farrell. Okay, both of you? Okay. And Chance, we have you. Okay. Bill Miley.

Hello. When I first got here tonight about 5.30, I met these folks. We chatted. A year or so ago, I was actively involved in an issue that came to the Planning Commission for a studio over on Fox Street. Saw the inside and actively supported it, and I was very pleased that it got permitted. I understand in reading the administrative report, it's interesting that the services provided by this kind of facility is under a Court of Appeal First Amendment protection which I think is kind of exciting.

A bunch of years ago, I used to have my car serviced at Oxnard Honda And on a Friday, if you went, they had a lady who would clean your nails, polish your nails. And she had what I would then call tattoos all over. But I quickly discovered that it's really body art. And so I would ask her about that particular body and she'd tell me. I see this proposal, even though there's piercing involved in it as a Barnea facility, a studio.

And that describes what goes on. A tattoo has all sorts of understandings based on who you were and how long you've lived and such. At my age, it goes back to the movies and such. Some of my family members are now having body art on expressing certainly personal kinds of stories. And I am thinking, my wife's nickname given to her when she was a small child by her dad was Cookie because that's because she liked cookies.

And so maybe someplace on me, I ought to have a cookie. I like this proposal.

Thank you Bill. Jayden? Parks maybe?

Hello, my name is Jaden. I'm a second generation resident here in Ojai and I've known Chance for my whole life. We've been friends since childhood and yeah, I speak on behalf of a really close friend and he has been a very very good friend to me throughout my entire life. He cares deeply about his friends, his family his community. So I think that based off of just how I've known him and experienced his deep knowledge and his deep care in love for For me and for all our friends and for his family.

I think that he wants to Extend that out into his community as well so I just yeah, I really think that he can bring a very special gift to Ojai and Yeah, that's all I really want to say

Thank You Jaden.

Thank you

Next we have Amber Young

Thank you so much for the work that you do on behalf of our community. I know you guys are all volunteers. I'm not here to talk about the merits of tattoos or body art, which I think are great, or the merits of the applicant, which I also think are great. But my husband and I own the business that operates at 308 East Ojai Avenue. So we are in, we share the back parking lot and even whatever is available on the street.

And I just think that this could not be a better business to go into this space. Um, I think whatever parking requirements they need to have for their business to operate are worth it to have a thriving business in that space. We have been the property, we've been the business owners there since 2000 and We've yet to see a really thriving business that contributes to the plaza in a meaningful way.

Love all of our neighbors there, but we're excited to have somebody really move in and really make that plaza what it can be by what they can bring to our community. So just we're really hoping that you guys are able to pass this and we can welcome them into our neighborhood. Thank you. And I'm going to not because I'm not supporting them. I have to get home to my kid.

Thank you.

I have another card from someone wishing to speak, but there's no name on it. Oh OK. OK.

Hi everybody and thank you. I'm Dr. Susan Collegian, LCSW and I am the Artistic Director also of Ojai Valley Artist Theater Ensemble in town. I've been here 35 years and I partnered into those five generations of Ohians that made that boy over there. So during 2020 and 2021, my son's life changed being a high schooler here at Nordoff and went in a totally different direction. He said mom I don't know what the world is going to do. I don't think I'm going to go to college let me follow my heart and he locked himself up in his room for most of the time that the sequestered couple years that we were in our houses and he drew and he became an amazing fine artist all the while begging for a tattoo gun which I finally gave in to.

So his art, I have seen flourish here. He had a show about a year after just last week he was one of the speakers at Ojai Day and he helped design the mandala. He's very community oriented, very helpful person. I can't say enough about him. I just met Robin, and I can say one thing about what I know about tattooing because I have learned a lot in the last few years which is there are tattoo shops and there are tattoo artists. And these two are tattoo artists which goes into another thing that may you might not have thought about is the mental health component of what tattooing and artists can do for somebody It is not your grandfather's tattoo.

Okay, this is about transformation the way that their approaches especially chance because I have been the recipient of that and also watched it can have a mental health positive effect and and commonly does When people go into shops where there's dedication and a mindfulness that has to do with the connectivity of the person that they're working on when they hold it in a sacred space. Just like Nikitas was saying, these are important. These are our stories.

Times have changed, we have evolved or maybe even gone back to our predecessors that wore tattoos to tell our stories on our bodies. I have a personal request that this is made because I am often the practice canvas and I'd like to have some things done and finished Pretty soon. So another logistic thing is that many tattoo shops don't open at 8 and 9 in the morning, so the parking and the congestion that we have down there it's more towards you know afternoon into the later hours which is what she was saying about her business is that it would tie right into that. So I believe that the revenue Is there anyone else in the audience wishing to speak on this topic? Yes.

Would you give us your name for the record, please? Hi. My name is Maka. Maka. M-A-K-A I've been here almost 20 years. My family's been in Ojai for nearly 100 and I'm a hand poke tattoo artist. Hand poke doesn't use the machine. And what... I'm nervous! What I can say, Chance and I started learning tattooing together while different methods we shared a teacher.

She has since moved out of Ojai but what I can say about the way that Chance and I approach tattooing is that we have a lot of reverence for the fact that we are permanently marking someone and we both approach it in very often a ceremonial way if the recipient chooses to receive in that way. And as a woman who has received tattoos and also given tattoos to a lot of women, I've heard a lot of stories of women feeling uncomfortable and sometimes experiencing really inappropriate interactions with male tattoo artists And I can, as someone who has received and given tattoos with chance, I can wholeheartedly say that it would be such a benefit to our community and just to the tattoo community in general for a respectful young man to be having a practice available, a space available.

to contribute in that way, and I would love a space to tattoo out of too. So I'm in favor! Oh And I'd also like to say that tattooing is the oldest specimen Of tattooed skin that has ever been found is nearly 4,000 years old so humans marking the skin of other humans is ancient and began as Often as an initiation, a rite of passage. So I feel that Chance and I are more in that realm of tattooing, of offering rites of passage and initiation. And I also like to use the word adornment.

We are adorning our bodies with ink and others with ink. Yeah, just some thoughts.

Thank you. Is there anyone online, Cherry? No. Okay, at this time we will close the public hearing and bring the discussion back to the commissioners. Any questions anybody? I have a question then could you tell me why you have four stations and say you'll only use three

The body piercing portion is most likely going to be sort of a, the piercer that I'm going to be working with is gonna be coming in sort of on a temporary basis. They're not going to be there all the time and they're, I'm going to be learning how to pierce from them myself so my station itself is going to double as two spots. So that's kind of why it can be used as a flex space

There's also a term within tattooing called guest spotting. So if we have an artist that we know, that's in the industry, they'd like to come, that's visiting and has a clientele here, they will have a booth that they can tattoo at for a very temporary amount of time before they move on to their original shop wherever that may be And I know there are some codes in how long that is, it's usually five days that they can stay. So having an open booth is one of those things where we want to invite artists that share our ideals and our values. And that can bring a very specific style and clientele to the town and to the shop.

So it's more of, it's like a spare bedroom sort of feeling rather than everyone is going to be working all the time sort of thing. And I will say in my professional experience a piercing takes much less time than a tattoo so it will definitely double as Robin was saying primarily two that third being for piercing that fourth being as our spare guest bedroom so to speak metaphorically for another artist

And could you review for us the hours that you plan to be open?

Yeah, tattooing usually I think the earliest we would start would be about 11 a.m., going till probably 7-8 p.m.. I have a daughter so those are my hours.

And previously working in other shops that go much later. I need my sleep so You know not being loud at night Just keeping a really even pace with a lot of businesses that I already see within within the town In terms of in terms of those hours, so yeah 11 to 7

11 to seven and did I read that you were to be open Wednesday through Sunday?

I Believe that's correct Yes

Okay. So Sunday, you'll be conflicting with the farmer's market Saturday or is that Sunday? Sunday. Okay. Um, so that you're aware obviously that, that part of town gets very crowded on Sunday.

Absolutely.

Um okay. That's all I have is anyone else OK, thank you again. Thank

you so much. Thank you.

OK. Any issues? Are we having a discussion? Yes. I think I closed the public hearing and brought it back to the panel.

You just did.

I

did. Officially.

Yeah. All right.

You want me to go or what?

If you have a question, this is your...

Yeah no I'm just, I agree with staff that the tattoo parlor studio fits within the definition of personal services. I think that's the main thing we're here for, right? It's identified as a permitted use in the general commercial zoning district. So it's permitted they can go right in I'm still having a little And this is not for Robin and chance but for the property itself So when there an application comes in change of use, it's a good opportunity for the city to go Okay What's going on with this business? What does it look like outside are they meeting the conditions of approval from their original approval And I would say that on the outside, it is not. It doesn't have the same elevations as it did when it was approved.

It's deteriorated. So I would say, you know, I agree. It's great. And I think it's perfect for the spot and it's consistent with personal services, but I do think somehow we need to address either through conditions which puts the onerous on the applicant which I don't think is fair or code enforcement to go to talk to the property owner to talk about getting that place

It would be a little odd to do a condition that requires them when it's the property owner that really would need to go through that process. What could happen is a proactive approach from a co-compliance standpoint and address it that way but I'm also hearing From from the applicants that it sounds like they're getting ready to submit something That may be coming before this body, especially if they're making changes to the exterior

But I think it should be formalized personally. Yeah, like in a letter to the property owner That's my comments

Any other questions Comments

no other health or safety Requirements or anything like that for us to be aware of

For you to consider. No, there is requirements that they've got to go through through environmental health to ensure yeah

In that case the chair would entertain a motion at this time

I'll make a motion to pass the resolution as written.

Is there a second? I'll second that Any further discussion

Hearing I'll just say that I agree with Katrina So, I think that you know, whatever obviously kind of sort of outside of this but whatever we can do to To push that along this would be advisable

understood

Okay. And Sherry, would you

call the roll please? Roy Schmidt? Yes. Kelley? Yes. Stewart?

Yes

Murphy?

Yes Okay It sounds like it sounds like we are going to have a new business in town. Congratulations!

I take it we can get a Planning Commission back piece or chest piece Yeah We'll see you soon.

OK, thank you. And now we are

All right. Yeah, I'm annoyed. Can we get the staff report, please?

Thank you vice chair Good evening commissioners. My name is Lucas Eibert for the record. I'm the community development director here for the city of Ojai The item before you tonight is a request for approval For a tentative parcel map located at 216 Park Avenue the Area in question here is on the north side of Park Avenue. There's an existing residence behind that existing residences where the subdivision, the parcel map is being proposed. It's taking it from one particular individual parcel and subdividing that into three.

On the east side of that if you can go to the next slide. On the east side of that three parcel subdivision, or taking one and turning it into three is the proposal for the extension of Olive Street. And that street is currently a paper street. And those improvements would be a part of this proposal meaning it would have full improvements likely done through a subdivision improvement agreement as a part of this project and Improved upon by the developer and not by the city. The city would then turn around and accept those improvements As they would be required So you can see here the three parcels the one on the very north side they are meeting let's go to the next slide They are meeting the subdivision standards, so anytime that you're looking at doing a subdivision Within any city this city is included there are specific parameters that must be followed and those parameters live within title 10 chapter 3 the subdivisions subdivision regulations The site itself is zoned RO as a single family zoning district.

Those parameters include area, width and do not include a depth minimum requirement so what I've identified here is that each one of those parcels the third parcel or parcel three already has an existing residence on it Parcel 2 and parcel 1 do not those are vacant or would be would be vacant if and when the subdivision was to take place. Those areas are identified as them as minimums and then what is being proposed on the left you're seeing a 16,000 20 square feet the minimum like for instance with parcel one and parcel two it's 12,000 square feet as identified within our ordinance not within title 10 chapter 2 but actually within The residential standards within title 10 chapter 2 Here on the right I'm actually showing one of the particular parcels in question here for the subdivision You can see it highlighted in red Next slide, please And that is it for the presentation, but I would say this.

For this city we don't necessarily see a lot of subdivisions that aren't tied to affordable housing. This is one of the few ones, few that we see here as a proposal that is market rate housing. Well market rate in the sense that they're coming forward with a subdivision that does not include affordability pieces to it. I would also state that any of the the traffic situation. I know there's been some questions that have come up I would invite the applicant to speak to that a little bit and then we can have certainly a conversation as it evolves So with that if the Commission has any questions of staff, I could certainly answer them or we could defer to the applicant in terms of Responding to questions as well

So is the street that they're proposing, is that publicly held right now? Is that City of Ojai owned?

It is by paper street. Meaning it holds itself from the standpoint of having the opportunity for development but not being developed at this point. It's just a dirt road at this point. Unimproved,

it's not in the circulation element right identified. I'm not

seeing it So there are city there are areas that are identified as potential for development or they even identify those areas is not Potential to but for development this one for whatever reason is left out and I'm not I mean, I don't have a crystal ball as to why but

Should we hear from the applicant then? Or do you want to ask any

questions before- Yeah, let's hear from the applicant real quick for me.

Hi there, sorry I couldn't be there in person today. I'm currently out of town preparing for my wedding this weekend so Tatiana is the primary engineer that is helping me with this project but I can speak to some of the technical concerns. Myself, my sister and my mother who are also listed on Apple. We've all been involved in the broad community for literally generations as this used to be my father's place. As Lynn said it used to be my grandmother's place, Lillian Sayre.

So we're trying to be able to make this area of open weeds that we have to clear out every year, we're trying to make it usable. And I'd love to turn it over to Tatiana to answer technical questions.

And for the record, that was Andre Sayer, one of the owners of the property. To answer the question about the road, it is a paper road so that road isn't technically a part of the owner's responsibility right now. The owner is just trying to subdivide these three parcels but Per the conditions of approval, they would be required to actually build the road improvements and then after they've satisfied all of the conditions based on the city engineers requirements Then that would be turned over to the city as a public road And then we do have our traffic engineer ATE on virtual for any of the traffic related questions so Daryl if you could just give a little brief overview of Just the considerations for the traffic analysis. That would be great

Good evening, this is Darryl Nelson with ATE. We did a traffic analysis for this particular project and it was reviewed by the city and approved by the staff but basically this project in and of itself is going to generate three peak hour trips and five p.m. peak hour trips And when those trips are distributed throughout the community, it's determined at that particular level that it does not have an adverse effect or is inconsistent with general plan policies.

And as part of the CEQA analysis, the project does not trigger CEQAs impacts in terms of vehicle miles traveled. It's below the threshold of 110 daily trips So there isn't a particular issue with CEQA. And there's some general, again, general plan policies that the city has and in that particular area of Ventura County where the project is, again consistent with all the city and county policies with regards to traffic effects.

Thank you, Daryl.

Can I just ask a follow-up question?

Sure.

How is this consistent with AQP4? I think you know which policy I'm talking about specifically.

Okay, that policy says... That particular policy, the project doesn't add any trips southbound and no trips northbound. So that makes it consistent with that policy. The level of traffic is less than one trip. It's not like you're going to have people coming and going down to Ventura every day. Sometimes someone will go down there on Tuesday, and then they might not go back down there until The following week, so on average it's less than one trip. So that keeps it below the policy threshold.